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Gap Between Lock and Stock
- Thread starter rancher
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ApprenticeBuilder
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Smoke the lock with the flame from a candle and see where it is touching, remove offending wood.
You might first look at Mike Brooks tutorial on building a gun, pay special attention to the lock inlet section of the tutorial
You might first look at Mike Brooks tutorial on building a gun, pay special attention to the lock inlet section of the tutorial
I have owned 3 of them in flintlock. All 3 had gaps at the lock. I stripped the lock, took inletting black & blackened the back of the lockplate, put it in the rifle & tapped it with a plastic mallet.
Took the lockplate back out, shaved the blackened area off about .005 EVENLY on all black areas. Repeat process. Prob 2 times & you will have it down flush with the barrel. It is important you go down Evenly.
Now put the guts back on the lock & retry it. If it hits or drags cocking, blacken the internals & again put in, tap, remove, take off the black spots the internals made. Repeat til you get where the internals clear everything & the Lockplate is supporting the lock.
When ya get it all OK, then seal the wood with Tru-Oil or Permalyn..... (Walnart or any Sporting Goods store) 2 light coats. Put it on with a brush, let it sit 15 min, then wipe it out with a lint free towel.
Let it sit 12 hrs, it will look like ya didn't do much. Do same thing again.
You don't want a shiny finish, you just want it sealed. Take a small tipped screwdriver & the rag & sop it out of the corners & crevices as well.
Keith Lisle
Took the lockplate back out, shaved the blackened area off about .005 EVENLY on all black areas. Repeat process. Prob 2 times & you will have it down flush with the barrel. It is important you go down Evenly.
Now put the guts back on the lock & retry it. If it hits or drags cocking, blacken the internals & again put in, tap, remove, take off the black spots the internals made. Repeat til you get where the internals clear everything & the Lockplate is supporting the lock.
When ya get it all OK, then seal the wood with Tru-Oil or Permalyn..... (Walnart or any Sporting Goods store) 2 light coats. Put it on with a brush, let it sit 15 min, then wipe it out with a lint free towel.
Let it sit 12 hrs, it will look like ya didn't do much. Do same thing again.
You don't want a shiny finish, you just want it sealed. Take a small tipped screwdriver & the rag & sop it out of the corners & crevices as well.
Keith Lisle
paulvallandigham
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How? You want the lock plate to be supporting the lock, not any internal part. If you don't remove the lock parts, how do you know that the lock is resting ONLY on the lock plate mortise????
What is your aversion to removing the lock parts?
Its one of the first thing I do with EVERY GUN I buy or build, to check for part fit, rubbing where parts are not suppose to rub, burrs on edges that should not be there, the straightness of the lock plate, and if the parts move correctly without any spring tension being placed on the parts. When i replace the springs, I check them to see if they have the correct tension. I often find weak sear springs. Now is the time to replace it, or fix it. I often find mainsprings mounted incorrectly, or that "stack", or do not have polished surfaces at the nose, and the contact surface on the horn of the tumbler.
Where springs are attached to the tumbler with a stirrup and rod, I often find that these don't move freely. They often do much better with the application of a drop of oil to the joints, and some manual working back and forth to free them up.
All this fine work is called " tuning the lock", BTW. Its done while waiting for the stock finish oil to dry in the lock mortise. It produces a much smoother working, and generally faster action.
What is your aversion to removing the lock parts?
Its one of the first thing I do with EVERY GUN I buy or build, to check for part fit, rubbing where parts are not suppose to rub, burrs on edges that should not be there, the straightness of the lock plate, and if the parts move correctly without any spring tension being placed on the parts. When i replace the springs, I check them to see if they have the correct tension. I often find weak sear springs. Now is the time to replace it, or fix it. I often find mainsprings mounted incorrectly, or that "stack", or do not have polished surfaces at the nose, and the contact surface on the horn of the tumbler.
Where springs are attached to the tumbler with a stirrup and rod, I often find that these don't move freely. They often do much better with the application of a drop of oil to the joints, and some manual working back and forth to free them up.
All this fine work is called " tuning the lock", BTW. Its done while waiting for the stock finish oil to dry in the lock mortise. It produces a much smoother working, and generally faster action.
Yes, It could be done with the lock intact. Not how you would usually do it, but possible. You would blacked ALL on the back Except the lockplate, to insure the black impressions are made on the wood from the guts.
Then reinsert blackened lock & tap & check & remove all blackens impressions. Do several times if necessary to insure you have clearance.
Then take some Brake Drum Cleaner & wash off the lock. Then blacken the lockplate inside edges as mentioned in my previous post & remove hitting wood. Remove about .005 of wood. Then remove & wash it off.
Now go back to the guts again & do same as above again.
Then back to the lockplate & do that again, etc.
However, this is allot of back & forth & it is much simpler to disassemble the lock. I don't think there is a simpler lock to disassemble than a GPR lock.
The mainspring is a lil tricky, but doable with a lil effort & a pair of good needlenose pliers or needlenose vice grips.
To disasemble the lock, do it over a white dish towel on a table, so you don't lose & can see the parts. Might want to take a photo of it before ya start, but it is pretty basic. One I am describing is a Percussion lock.
Take a pair of needlenose pliers & on a RH lock, look at the mainspring & see the lil machined round rod end going into the tumbler rod seat. Put pliers there & push left & get that tip out of the tumbler, & now slip it off & pull rod out with mainspring on it.
Remove the three screws on the bridle plate.
Remove small pin & spring under it from the pocket above the sear arm.
Remove the fly & put all these parts in a plastic container with a Lid on it.
You will need to make a special punch, that is very easy to make. You punch the tumbler out of the hammer with a piece or Brass made into a punch, do not pry it off. Or buy a puller to pull the hammer from Mike Lea.
To make the tumbler punch, simply take a piece of 1/4" brass rod, & file the end square sightly smaller than the square hole in the hammer. (Do not use a round or a steel punch, you could damage the threads in the tumbler screw hole) You do not need that lil ring cut on the punch of the image, that is for a retainer to lock it into a punch block. All you need is the filed square end to go in the hammer square hole, punch to be slightly smaller as not to bind in the hole.
Lay a rag across the open jaws of the vice to catch the tumbler you are punching out.
Put the lockplate over a vice that is open just enough to let the tumbler thru the jaws.
Remove hammer screw retaining the tumbler to the tumbler shaft, take punch & punch the tumbler shaft out of the hammer.
If you use a Mike Lea hammer puller, snug the jaws down on the hammer just snug, tap the End of the jaws of the puller that are facing you, with a plastic mallet, snug them down again, tap again, etc. til it pulls off.
Upon reassembly of the hammer, First oil all the parts, as you washed the oil off with brake drum cleaner. Don't forget to oil the screws & the screw holes. Put the tumbler in the lockplate, clock the hammer correctly on the tumbler shaft, (the seat of the tumbler goes Straight Down for the mainspring rod to go in it, hammer is in the fired position)
Have the inside of the tumbler on the vice rear jaw or back part of the vice, put hammer on the shaft & tap it on with a plastic mallet. Insert retaining screw. Do Not overtighten the hammer retaining screw, just snug it up good. Reassemble guts of the lock in reverse procedure of the disassemble above..
Keith Lisle
Then reinsert blackened lock & tap & check & remove all blackens impressions. Do several times if necessary to insure you have clearance.
Then take some Brake Drum Cleaner & wash off the lock. Then blacken the lockplate inside edges as mentioned in my previous post & remove hitting wood. Remove about .005 of wood. Then remove & wash it off.
Now go back to the guts again & do same as above again.
Then back to the lockplate & do that again, etc.
However, this is allot of back & forth & it is much simpler to disassemble the lock. I don't think there is a simpler lock to disassemble than a GPR lock.
The mainspring is a lil tricky, but doable with a lil effort & a pair of good needlenose pliers or needlenose vice grips.
To disasemble the lock, do it over a white dish towel on a table, so you don't lose & can see the parts. Might want to take a photo of it before ya start, but it is pretty basic. One I am describing is a Percussion lock.
Take a pair of needlenose pliers & on a RH lock, look at the mainspring & see the lil machined round rod end going into the tumbler rod seat. Put pliers there & push left & get that tip out of the tumbler, & now slip it off & pull rod out with mainspring on it.
Remove the three screws on the bridle plate.
Remove small pin & spring under it from the pocket above the sear arm.
Remove the fly & put all these parts in a plastic container with a Lid on it.
You will need to make a special punch, that is very easy to make. You punch the tumbler out of the hammer with a piece or Brass made into a punch, do not pry it off. Or buy a puller to pull the hammer from Mike Lea.
To make the tumbler punch, simply take a piece of 1/4" brass rod, & file the end square sightly smaller than the square hole in the hammer. (Do not use a round or a steel punch, you could damage the threads in the tumbler screw hole) You do not need that lil ring cut on the punch of the image, that is for a retainer to lock it into a punch block. All you need is the filed square end to go in the hammer square hole, punch to be slightly smaller as not to bind in the hole.
Lay a rag across the open jaws of the vice to catch the tumbler you are punching out.
Put the lockplate over a vice that is open just enough to let the tumbler thru the jaws.
Remove hammer screw retaining the tumbler to the tumbler shaft, take punch & punch the tumbler shaft out of the hammer.
If you use a Mike Lea hammer puller, snug the jaws down on the hammer just snug, tap the End of the jaws of the puller that are facing you, with a plastic mallet, snug them down again, tap again, etc. til it pulls off.
Upon reassembly of the hammer, First oil all the parts, as you washed the oil off with brake drum cleaner. Don't forget to oil the screws & the screw holes. Put the tumbler in the lockplate, clock the hammer correctly on the tumbler shaft, (the seat of the tumbler goes Straight Down for the mainspring rod to go in it, hammer is in the fired position)
Have the inside of the tumbler on the vice rear jaw or back part of the vice, put hammer on the shaft & tap it on with a plastic mallet. Insert retaining screw. Do Not overtighten the hammer retaining screw, just snug it up good. Reassemble guts of the lock in reverse procedure of the disassemble above..
Keith Lisle
The idea of dissassembling a lock is a scary thing to those who haven't done it before. I would not reccomend doing it without having a quality mainspring vise.
Rub and wear areas can usually be spotted without using blackening. The will look rubbed and often shiny. The job can be done.
I don't reccomend use of a mallet for cleaning up a small mortise area like that. A small flat chisle that is very sharp will do the job well. A 1/4" or 3/8" is just fine, I prefer the 1/4". Sometimes a chisle is not necessary, just cleaning out chips and detrius from the manufacturing process is all that is needed.
paulvallandigham
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To be clear, I didn't talk about ANY tools I use to adjust the depth of the mortise. :shocked2:
I agree with you that NO mallet should be used, and in many cases you won't even need to use a small chisel to remove the high spots. :nono: Adjusting the lock mortise to bring the lock plate, and BOLSTER evenly flush with the side flat of a barrel involves a lot of fine work.
I saw one gun at my club where the bolster had not been filed to meet the taper of the barrel, so that there was a large GAP between the lockplate and the barrel. The Range officer stopped the man from shooting this flintlock until he got help from more experienced builders to marry that bolster to the barrel and eliminate the GAP! :shocked2: :barf: :idunno: :surrender:
We had a meeting of officers, the Range officer, and the gun's owner over the matter to arrive at a consensus as to what caused the Gap. The President of the club, then, had made the same mistake with a similar gun, so He spotted the problem right off. :v :thumbsup:
Removing parts may be a "daunting task" --even scary-- to some shooters, but it has to be done by someone. I have had shooter sit and watch me take their lock off the gunstock- just to see how that was done! And, many shooters will watch as I remove the lock parts, inspect the lock, beginning with the lock plate, and point out all the minor problems I find, explaining why they are a problem.
When I have such an "audience", I will take the time to have the shooter feel the parts move manually, both before and after I clean up the parts.
I explain what I am doing, and why, as I move from one part to another, so that by the time we finish, they know exactly how to take that lock apart, how to properly maintain it, and why.
Because they have seen me diagnose the problems, and now understand the relationship between parts, they leave being able to watch out for changes in the lock that indicate that something is wrong. I will get calls and Emails from some of them if they aren't sure what is wrong, and we can generally figure it out long distance.
My greatest source of satisfaction is finding out that these shooters go on to help other shooters learn about their locks.
I only wish I lived near Keith Lisle(Birddog6), so that I could refer all these shooters with problem locks to him. We have way too few competent Black Powder gunsmiths, and builders in this country, and most can't afford to advertise beyond their circle of friends.
I agree with you that NO mallet should be used, and in many cases you won't even need to use a small chisel to remove the high spots. :nono: Adjusting the lock mortise to bring the lock plate, and BOLSTER evenly flush with the side flat of a barrel involves a lot of fine work.
I saw one gun at my club where the bolster had not been filed to meet the taper of the barrel, so that there was a large GAP between the lockplate and the barrel. The Range officer stopped the man from shooting this flintlock until he got help from more experienced builders to marry that bolster to the barrel and eliminate the GAP! :shocked2: :barf: :idunno: :surrender:
We had a meeting of officers, the Range officer, and the gun's owner over the matter to arrive at a consensus as to what caused the Gap. The President of the club, then, had made the same mistake with a similar gun, so He spotted the problem right off. :v :thumbsup:
Removing parts may be a "daunting task" --even scary-- to some shooters, but it has to be done by someone. I have had shooter sit and watch me take their lock off the gunstock- just to see how that was done! And, many shooters will watch as I remove the lock parts, inspect the lock, beginning with the lock plate, and point out all the minor problems I find, explaining why they are a problem.
When I have such an "audience", I will take the time to have the shooter feel the parts move manually, both before and after I clean up the parts.
I explain what I am doing, and why, as I move from one part to another, so that by the time we finish, they know exactly how to take that lock apart, how to properly maintain it, and why.
Because they have seen me diagnose the problems, and now understand the relationship between parts, they leave being able to watch out for changes in the lock that indicate that something is wrong. I will get calls and Emails from some of them if they aren't sure what is wrong, and we can generally figure it out long distance.
My greatest source of satisfaction is finding out that these shooters go on to help other shooters learn about their locks.
I only wish I lived near Keith Lisle(Birddog6), so that I could refer all these shooters with problem locks to him. We have way too few competent Black Powder gunsmiths, and builders in this country, and most can't afford to advertise beyond their circle of friends.
I don't know of a mainspring vise for a GPR, InvestArms or T/C lock with a coil type spring. That is why I suggested the needlenose pliers or needlenose vicegrips. Maybe someone makes & offers them ? :idunno: I don't know.
Possibly could be made, similar to the old valvespring pliers like on old autos engines & lawn mower engine valve springs. Whether it is worth the trouble for using once every 2-3-4 years.... :idunno: depends on who is working on it & how ofter they work on that type of lock.
That being said, I strongly recommend a mainspring vise on a lock with a Flat type mainspring, such as a Siler, Davis, etc.
Keith Lisle
Paul: Correction here. I am definitely not a gunsmith, but than you for the compliment. If you lived close, neither of us would ever get any work done, unless we considered talking was the work. :rotf: :rotf:
Also, I don't like to & do my best to refrain from working on locks. I do my best to use Chambers locks so I don't have to work on them.
Either, I, or the folks replying misunderstand your question. :idunno: I believe you are inquiring about the gap between the mortise and the lock itself? Not how deep the lock is in the mortise? Which by the way can be done without removing any parts. Just put inlett black on the back of the lock and see it any of the springs or other lock parts touch. Why somebody thinks this isn't possible, :hmm: I ”¦....oh, well , back to the jest of the original question. You can cut small slivers of matching wood, walnut ?, and super glue a slightly oversized piece on. You can even do this with the lock installed on the gun. Even with all it's parts still attached! :shocked2: When dry simply trim it down and apply the same finish as the gun has. :thumbsup:
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I agree with you Rancher. It is interesting that some folks with a bit of knowledge must preface their advice with demeaning statements. I was following the thread with interest and learning new things but that was somewhat snooty to say the least as I did not see that you had exhibited any 'aversion' to anything. The fella has a lot of good information if you can ignore the capitalization and other boorish behaviorrancher said:
Apparently I misunderstood you as well. I thought you meant a gap at the bolster between the barrel & the flashpan, as that is what I had on the ones I owned.
However, if it is a gap between the inlet of the wood to the lockplate, you have no choice but to glue something in to take up the space & reinlet.
Most of the time the repair is noticeable, unless you are extremely experienced & good at matching grain & color & etc. Or you stain it really dark in that area. Practice makes perfect in this situation.
Keith Lisle
However, if it is a gap between the inlet of the wood to the lockplate, you have no choice but to glue something in to take up the space & reinlet.
Most of the time the repair is noticeable, unless you are extremely experienced & good at matching grain & color & etc. Or you stain it really dark in that area. Practice makes perfect in this situation.
Keith Lisle
Sometimes I am convinced that some folks pound their keyboards because they have never done anything like what they are advising someone else to do. :hmm: You know you can just tell. :shocked2: You are not required to have a PHD in order to tell just how experienced the writer is. :wink:
I should not have replied in the manner I did, and I apologize. Was just a little bit put off by the tone of the reply I suppose. Anyhow, yeah there is a gap between the pan and the wood and pan powder gets back behind the lock creating a dangerous situation. Just want to get this situation corrected.
If there is a gap between the pan and the barrel and it's allowing powder to get down into the lock mortice the lock needs to be moved deeper into the wood until it just touches the side of the barrel.
That is the right way to do it.
It involves deepening the small shoulders in the wood that the lock is sitting on. IMO, the best tool for this is a razor sharp 1/4" wide chisel.
Other effective but poorer ways of fixing the problem is to fill the void with bees wax or a thin piece of metal.
That is the right way to do it.
It involves deepening the small shoulders in the wood that the lock is sitting on. IMO, the best tool for this is a razor sharp 1/4" wide chisel.
Other effective but poorer ways of fixing the problem is to fill the void with bees wax or a thin piece of metal.
rancher said:
If you have a gap & pan powder is getting behind the lock, the lock pan is not up against the barrel correctly.. Go back to my posts about inletting the lock deeper to get the lock bolster up against the barrel. If that fit is correct, there is no way powder will get under the lock.
Keith Lisle
paulvallandigham
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Now, you are being unfair. I simply asked a question. This kind of question comes up on this forum frequently, and has come to me on many occasions here, through members of my local club.
When some one asks if there is some way of working on a lock with out taking it apart, I have no idea what they know or don't know about traditional firearms, much less any firearms.
Gunsmiths over the years tell me that they would all be out of business if shooters actually learned to clean their guns regularly- regardless where the powder and ball enter the barrel!
:shocked2:
From my answer above, it should be obvious that I am one of those guys who has to take apart every gadget he buys, so he knows how it works. I come by it honestly, from my father, and grandfather.
I have done this all my life. I simply don't understand why someone would expect to work on a problem with a gun without taking it apart. It doesn't make any sense in "my world"- and you are Really "Welcome to it".
If my question offended someone, I apologize. It was not my intent. Trust me, If I intend to fire arrows at you, you will know it. ( and I will try to do it by PT, not on the forums, here.)
A bit of Poultry(oops! poetry, maybe?):
"I eat my peas with honey
I've done it all my life.
To you that may seem funny,
But it keeps them on my knife.!"
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
When some one asks if there is some way of working on a lock with out taking it apart, I have no idea what they know or don't know about traditional firearms, much less any firearms.
Gunsmiths over the years tell me that they would all be out of business if shooters actually learned to clean their guns regularly- regardless where the powder and ball enter the barrel!
:shocked2:
From my answer above, it should be obvious that I am one of those guys who has to take apart every gadget he buys, so he knows how it works. I come by it honestly, from my father, and grandfather.
I have done this all my life. I simply don't understand why someone would expect to work on a problem with a gun without taking it apart. It doesn't make any sense in "my world"- and you are Really "Welcome to it".
If my question offended someone, I apologize. It was not my intent. Trust me, If I intend to fire arrows at you, you will know it. ( and I will try to do it by PT, not on the forums, here.)
A bit of Poultry(oops! poetry, maybe?):
"I eat my peas with honey
I've done it all my life.
To you that may seem funny,
But it keeps them on my knife.!"
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
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paulvallandigham said:
Perhaps I was indeed unfair and if so, I also apologize.
Rancher had only asked a question as well, and as you say, we have no way of knowing to what extent others are comfortable, or even safe in the assembly and dis-assembly process. I am not sure that I would want to shoot beside someone that had altered his rifle without proper knowledge of the workings.If he can fix his problem without getting in over his head, that is a good thing.
And this is also why I stated that you have a good deal of knowledge to offer, as do the others here.
So Happy Thanksgiving back to you Paul and the rest of folks here at the forum :thumbsup:
Well I think I got it figured out for the most part. I put inlet black on the back of the lock and put it back in the gun. The only place where I could find it contacting was on the barrel. I thought "hmmm that's strange." So i put it back in and tried it again. Sure enough the only spot I could find it was on the barrel. So I got to looking at my lock and the screw that holds the frizzen in place was back out a little bit and contacting the barrel. So I just tightened up so the screw was flush with the lock plate and that eliminated almost all of the gap. There is no just an ever so slight gap. Might try sealing it up with wax.
