gauges, chokes and patterns

[AkDan]

I thought I'd start a topic on this. Being new to black powder shotgunning and having done quite a bit of reading last winter and talking to my father about this all, I still have many questions that go unanswered to some degree or another.

He had told me to buy a 10 ga, I can always load down. However in relation to patterns (I've noticed some people getting what would be extreme patterns out of even modern none turkey choked guns), how does bore size with no choke or choked affect patterns? I like that idea of the 10ga but it brings up these questions.

SHould a guy be looking for a choked gun (jugged, or possibly just a choked barrel as I do not care for screw ins), or keep playing around with loads and going to paper shotcups, buffers and the likes? Does a smaller gauged barrel produce tighter patterns? If so what would be the smallest guage and load in relations to a turkey gun with minimal fowling and possibly rooster hunting though that would be extremely rare?

Sorry to ask newby questions or be redundent. The summers winding down, to much time on the ocean plays with a mans mind. Spring turkey season for 2008 is in the makings already and it's awfully tough to load at -30 or colder for more then a couple of rounds.

I've made one mistake that landed me poor in the pocket but hopefully a little wiser to my choices. Again I have no help, no fellow black powder shotgunners even remotely close to here that I know of. The only muzzle stuffing scatter gun toting person I know is my father and he is 3000 miles away, needless to say we spend many hours on the phone chatting and talking. He's a bit content, I like to take it a bit farther and do it right the first time........................

.......... after many years of doing it wrong so many times.

 

[shmrck1]

Dan,
I could be wrong,but I don't ever remember seeing
a thread on the MLF about hunting turkey in
Alaska. I'm wondering which one of the turkey's
are available to hunt in Alaska?
I think no matter the guage,it is imperitive to
stay inside 30 to 40yrds max. Get a load workup
that works for your gun at 35yrds and it should
work well inside 40.If you stay with the 10guage
try different shot(5and6)work best in most.
Then try different powder charges.2ff for sure
in a 10g.Then you can try different wads and waffers or even shot cups. The 10 guage you have
will harvest turkey if you do your part.
There are a lot more folks here that know more on the subject that I and I hope they jump in to assist.
snake-eyes:hmm:

 

[BrownBear]

You're dad is right about the ballistic potential of the 10, but doesn't go into the handling. The ten I tried recently (Pedersoli) is significantly bigger and heavier than the old Navy Arms 12 I used for so many years.. For a general, all purpose shotgun that included turkeys I'm more inclined toward a 12 simply because I use shotguns a lot more for walking around and small game than I do sitting in a blind. Heck, if it was a great and wonderful world and I could afford to, I'd buy a 10 and a 20, both doubles, rather than a 12. But then I'm a fan of doubles.

Some folks here have had very good success with their 20 gauge fowlers for turkey using shot charges as heavy or heavier than I used in the 12, while getting great patterns at longer ranges than you might suspect. There are some good threads on how they do it in the archives here in the smoothbore section as well as in the hunting section.

For turkey you could probably do just fine with a single barrel, which opens the world of shotgun replacement barrels for some some rifles such as T/C, as well as fowlers and smoothbore muskets in 20 gauge (62 caliber). There are also 72 and 75 caliber smoothies to be had if you want a shotgun with even more oomph potential.

I'd look pretty hard at how else you'll use the gun in addition to sitting in a blind for turkey before settling on a 10. I'd also decide whether or not you really need or want a double. I agree with you on avoiding chokes, but some of the folks here find compleat happiness with them. A friend long ago bought a kit for a 72 cal smoothie with interchangeable rifled and smooth barrels, but has left the box of parts sitting under a bed for over 10 years now. Yeah, I'm trying to convince him that it would do more good assembled in the field with me than collecting dust bunnies. But even then, I'd still be yammering for a double.

 

[shootemup]

Hi Dan,
Working up loads for a smoothbore is, in my opinion, some of the most enjoyable time you can spend shooting muzzleloaders.
I think your Dad is spot-on in saying that you can load down for small game, but if you plan to use this gun for both turkey and small game, stick with the cylinder bore. Choke is okay for squirrel or rabbit but you won't want it when you go after the birds.
Try some different load combinations - it's usually good to start with the same volume of powder and shot and adjust from there. I have usually tightened patterns a little bit by using more shot than powder. I don't have a 10 gauge, but 100 grains is probably about right as a place to start for a turkey load.
If you can, get some #4 shot and some #5 shot and try each in your gun. Try fiber cushion wads and Wonder Wads, see which works better for you. I haven't played much with paper cartridges as I'm just learning how to make them (excellent explanation of how on this forum recently, pictures and everything) but I have tried using buffers such as malt-o-meal or cornbread muffin mix. Can't say the buffers have helped but it was fun.
Keep a log - you don't have to get real complicated about it but you can figure your gun out more quickly if you write everything down. You need a different load for small game, turkey, and waterfowl. You may also want to work up a roundball load.
Have fun with it and keep us posted on your progress. Don't worry about asking questions, we all have questions to ask.

Mark

 

[AkDan]

thanks guys,

First, there are NO turkeys in Alaska, well with feathers anyways . I travled to Mo, NE, Ks this past spring. Missed out on the Mn draw (where I'm originally from), and also the wi surplus tags.

The 10 I have is ok, however there are still issues with this gun. My father and a gunsmith buddy of his are playing around with the mod barrel to find out why it doesn't fire on a regular basis before I ended wrapping it around a tree. 4 pulls, 4 no fires on longbeards last spring 3 under 20 yards, the 4th at just over. Funny thing was on bird 4 I couldnt help but laugh when the hen I had riled up came right back after I busted the cap.

I'd like to stick with doubles. And lately after seeing these double fowlers they are beaaaaaaaautiful! I have been for awhile now strictly a traditional bowhunter, shooting a longbow and wood arrows, and still do for all my big game and grouse hunting. I have this smokepole strictly for turkeys and because it's just darn fun to shoot. I'm not much into watefowl but I wouldnt mind going a few times, and we have no ringnecks around here either though I'm trying to plan a North Dakota trip for roosters this october with my father. It's something we've never done and I figured it'd be a hoot (there's plenty of room if any of yall want to meet us there). There were some years lost and the clocks ticking. I dont intend to let them go by at idle. We're trying to plan on him coming up the first week of october for some shrimping crabbing, salmon and halibut fishing. Something he's never done in the 12 years I've been here, now as an asst hunting guide and a charter boat captian.

enough about me.

I have worked a load up that I felt confident in out to 25 yards in the mod and 20 yards in the cyl pedersoli 10, however 1 shot at a bird at 25 yards left me baffeled. I dont know if I was in more shock to see the barrel fired, or that the bird never flinched and wasnt laid out dead!!!! Don't ask, I dont know what in sam heck happened. I am throughly disgusted with this pedersoli. Barrels were loose, I had to personally rework the locks, bend hammers, now the fore grip is loose. The mod barrel is regulated a little low and left, the tighter the pattern, the more evident this was, up to slugging a shotcup low and left every single time.

So here I am, looking for something. Percussion, or possibly a custom fowler. I dont have 10k to spend on a fine piece I'd feel bad scratching, but a custom gun is not out of the question, IF I can find someone to build the right piece, or heck even find someone whose still BUILDING them period!

hence the questions. I see a lot of 12's percussion and have seen a few double double fowlers though they are mostly 16 or 20 gauge or lighter. It has me thinking hard about buying one, though I know better. I did find a navy arms 12 percussion just the other day and thought about buying it. If you can't tell I'm addicted, I just hope not as bad as with my stickbows, I have another on order that puts me up to 15 or so now, I'm afraid to admit how many to my wife . I've seen quite a few 20's, or 28 gauges, even found a beeeaaaautiful 48 gauge (I know it's too light for what I want it for).

I dont want a cannon to reach out and kill turkeys at 40 yards. I want something that can throw a good solid pattern out to 30 yards, that is consistent. That doesnt need to much major work done to it just to make it fire right out of the gate. It can be beautiful, but I'd rather have it feel good in the hand and have tight patterns.

Last of all, no inlines and no cartridge guns. I love doing it the hard way! I just could use some help at newby getting back on the right foot.

 

[Rebel]

I hunted for years with a Navy Arms (Pietta) double barrel .12 ga and never had any problems with it at all. The barrels were both spot on even with rd balls. It killed a couple of turkeys after we moved here but a whole lot of jackrabbits, ducks geese, doves, and quail where we lived before. I fired thousands of shots through that gun and never had any trouble with it. Never had a misfire as long as i snapped a cap on each barrel before loading it. It had cyl bore barrels so i didn't shoot turkey at over 20-25 yds, but it was a dependable double and not nearly as heavy as the .10 ga.'s are.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you are only using the 10 gauge for turkey, then you can use a modified barrel's pattern for those 30 yd. shots. I don't understand how a forend stock can be loose on a ML shotgun, as there is no break open, or separate sliver of wood for such a forestock. The stock is a single piece of wood. If the barrel key is loose, now, that can cause problems. A little bedding compound will tighten the contact between the barrels and the stock over the barrel key( stopping any barrel movement), and either a new key or bending or changing the shape of the existing key will cure any " loose key problems".

As to why the gun is misfiring, I would start at the nipple, and look for evidence that the hammer has peened the nipple down, causing a bulge in the trunk of the nipple that is keeping the caps from seating fully on the nipple. Because you report having tried to fire one cap 4 times without success, I am also suspecting that the hammer is not hitting the top of the nipple square. Use lipstick or some other colored substance to coat the top fo the nipple, and then lower the hammer onto the nipple. The lipstick will transfer color to the face of the hammer. If you do not see a complete ring, full width around the full arch, you have a high spot in the hammer's face that is preventing the hammer from hitting the nipple square. Use a small grinding bit to grind down the face of the hammer where the color appear. Try it again, mark it again and grind away the mark until you have a full circle that is of equal width all the way around. Then try the hammer with a few caps. You should have 100% reliable ignition.

Now, you did not describe this, but I had a percussion gun where the hammer would sometimes stop halfway through its fall. That was a lock problem, and also some wood that was interfering with the lock. A little work with a chisel to remove some wood, some polishing of internal lock parts, and that problem ended. I mention this simply because sometimes you have a variety of problems, rather than just one that is causing a misfire.

As to the pattern hitting low and left, Try filing a few strokes with a draw file on the lower left side of the muzzle of that barrel. That will allow the load to release a bit earlier on that side, moving the pattern back to center. This is trial and error work, nothing less. There is no quick fix for this kind of work. But, its very satisfying to move a pattern on a shotgun while at the range, using only a draw file, and your own knowledge of how shotguns actually work. Alway sccheck the muzzle of a barrel to see if it is square to the bore. A machinist or even a carpenter's square works. I use a depth gauge, because it also serves the purpose of squaring holes,and I have the darn thing, as a gift from my father.

 

[AkDan]

Paul,

Thanks for the input.

As for the 4 missfires, those were on birds.

I've had many many many missfires as has my father. I did replace the nipples before I left but didnt have time to run any rounds. The hammer isnt hitting flush, we moved it in, now need to 'bend over' for a lack of a better term, the hammer to get it to hit flat. we also found a burr on the corner in the fire hole. These are the bulk of the issues my father is working on.

When I say fore grip....I mean the wood out front. The barrel, or stock itself is shifting side to side. He was going to try and fix this problem also. I'll copy this and email it to my brother, my father isn't a computer kinda person.

As for filing.....I'd like someone around to atleast see my patterns, and possibly be standing by while I file. Then again if I'm willing to spend money on another gun, or two or three, (I'd still like to find a pair of custom fowlers, one for the two of us), filing on this one shouldnt be such an issue . I've read it being done, just not confident in doing it myself.

The hammer isn't stopping half way. It does fall. It did take some trigger work to get the mod trigger to the point where it was remotely comfortable just to shoot. Before it took way to much pressure to fire to the point I'd flinch. Mind you, I may not hunt with firearms, that doesnt mean I dont enjoy shooting them. We thought the flinching was a possibly to the low and left till we (a local buddy of mine) found a bench rest to shoot from, which ruled that out. Boy the damage you could do to a turkeys head if you could only get that slugged shotcup to hit dead center, man alive!!!

Have a half day charter today, need to get down to the boat. Again thanks for the input!

 

[ffffg]

Do you mean the cap isnt going off? The caps can be too small for the nipple.. I had this problem with my pedersoli...... when i hunted alone, i would take the hammer, push the cap down with gun in safe directon, until it seated all the way down... be carefull this is dangerous but will tell you if this is the problem.. We cant help you with statements like"the gun doesnt fire""............ Is the cap not going off? is the cap going off but not setting off the powder charge? .. if thats the case fire a cap before you load it and shoot some loose dirt and see if it blows it away before you leave the road (car).. and cut down on the oil.. it just runs down the barrel and plugs the nipples up with the stuff.. Too much oil will ruin anything.. well almost.. if the first guy who worked on it for a half hour didnt fix it, fire him, and take it to a good gunsmith.. period.. Your problems are self inflicted.. :wink: .. Sorry im sounding harsh on this... But the gun is fine, get her worked on by a profesional and be done with it.. To waste all this time and effort and practice and to travel thousands of miles and not spend 30 dollars for a smith to fix it is pretty bizzar. .. Keep asking questions, dont mind old fuddy duddys like me.. I had huge problemes starting out also, and did some pretty dumb things.... and lots of themm.. one problem with 10 gauge and light loads,, is the wads/cards tend to tip.. you will need double fiber wads or something to keep the load long enough from tipping, and thus causing blowby.. Also make sure your cards are round and over sized enough.. They have to be of better quality than smaller bores, and not oval, or too big or too small.. Presses press out thousands of them and sometimes one punch in a series of mutliple punches is under size, and this one will blow patterns.. We or i need to know exactly what is going on to stop your missfires.. alot easier to go to a GOOD gunsmith.. Good luck, keep it up and 15 years from now ill be dead and youl be teaching youngins how to solve thier problems with this very issue.. dave :v

 

[Wes/Tex]

It's hard to give real first-rate advise without seeing the gun but let me toss out a couple things. You have to be sure the inside face of the hammer is in the same plane as the top of the nipple. Sometimes the hammer fomes all the way down but is only hitting a small corner of the nipple top. You have to somw serios fiddling with a light to see that both are touching across both faces.

Another thing for pattern density is using less powder (by volume) than shot. Shot and powder are usually equal for most shotguns but less volume of powder will not blow through the pellet pattern than with equal amounts by volume. The second thing is to try Mr Starr's trick for choked guns. Try using a couple over-shot cards instead of a thick wad above the powder, these won't blow through the shot like a heavier wad. Beyond these things it'll be a matter of shooting and testing till the shotgun tells you what it likes best. Good luck.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you have access to a machinists square, and a draw file, filing the muzzle is just not that big a problem. I would not suggest you do it yourself if I didn't think a beginner could do this. Wherever the pattern of your gun is going away from the POA, that is the same side or ' angle " of the muzzle that you want to file a little. Just think of the barrel of the gun as a clock, and whatever " hour " of the clock corresponds to where the pattern is going, file that part on the muzzle to move it in the opposite direction, ie., back toward the point of aim. Take three strokes with a file, and test fire the gun. Check to see how much, if any the pattern, or ( shotcup slug) has moved from where it was hitting. It may take three shots off a rest to get a group good enough to tell you what you need to know. Then file some more, according to where the " slugs" are now hitting. If they haven't moved, you need to remove more metal from where you first filed.

 

[AkDan]

Paul,

I do blow caps, even tried running 20 grains as a fowling load, then load and she still doesnt like firing. I also store it muzzle down while not in use. Even tried priming the the nipple with 4f...boy DONT try that one. Scared the bejezzers outta me.

The hammer isnt hitting flat, we've already figured that part out. We have to bend the hammer back some, first it was tweaked out and back, now it just needs to come back.

The caps are firing every time.

for loads, I've tried quite a few, and still get the low and left. The load that came to be was a over shot then 1/8 nitro, then shot, the 1 over shot card, and it's ok. Really I thought it was plenty for 25 yards. I wont shoot turkeys with a regular modern gun past 30 regardless. So I was hoping to get this one to do this, and I think I still can. So far we've tried the 4 over shot cards, and 3, and 2, and every other config I can think of. I did save all my targets, and marked each and every one with the load config, poweder, wads, shot, etc. I'll keep tinkering with it, when I get it back from my old man. Got a call today, looks like he's coming up to fish for a week sept 2, and shrimp, and king crab. Maybe put the hurting on a few sea ducks for din din....and the outstanding crow hunting, virtually unhunted birds!!! To bad they aint worth eating. (I say that tounge in cheek as I'm sure someone loves to eat them).

This thread however wasnt on how to get a better pattern out of this gun. I have some things to try when it arrives here again. Until then I was just kicking the idea around. I think I'm going to by the navy arms 12 I saw if I can find it again :hmm: I'd still like to get a couple of matching guns, fowlers if possible one for him and one for me. I think that'd be cool and he'd be tickled. I was just sitting here thinking and trying to remember about the smaller bore fellas getting bettern patterns then I'm getting. If there is a corelation. Also thought about the possiblity of jug choking this gun, taking the mod to full and the cyl to mod.

And lastly, you havent seen gunsmith prices here in Alaska. Not to mention I learn nothing by paying someone to fix a problem I dont understand. I've thought about sending it off to the american smith for pedersoli (he's in MO, dont rememeber exactly where offhand if I get to flustered). This wont be my last smokepole.....I'd like to figure this out and make it right if I dont get to frustrated in this gun to begin with. In the mean time, a pair of double flinters fit for turkeys, for the old man and I are still on the mind!

 

[ffffg]

if the caps are going off all the time, dont fool with the hammer, nipple or etc.. its fine.. Even if you have a burr in the flash channel your gun should be going off.. something is blocking the channel.. Oil, wet wiping blowback etc.. Dont wipe a 10 gauge shotgun, its not neccesary. dont put any water or solution in the barrel ...just load powder- wads- shot- and over shot card... If you load it dry it should go off every time.. not great patterns, but it will tell you if its what your putting down the bore during loading that is causeing the problem.. I suspect somehow your powder is getting wet, or chanel is being blocked with wet blowback crud from cleaning inbetween shots, or lube getting under the nitro card blowing back, blocking ignition... Use .125 inch thick nitro cards over the powder it will keep lube from blowing back into the nipple area and stopping ignition.. 10 gauge isnt like a 20 guage.. you need correct size tough nitro cards... Get a calipers and check diameter of nitro cards so you arnt getting lube going by the nitro cards, making sludge out of the black powder in the chamber. It gets wet, gets pushed down the bore next time you load and then with ignition blows back into the breach and nipple area.. Its something simple like that.. When going turkey hunting clean bore with acetone to get all the oil out (this is dangerous, dont do it inside near water heaters or stoves or flames of any kind, use a minimum of the stuff, so you dont have prolems if something doesnt go wrong, and keep it and wet rags out of the house..) dry barrel no oil before turkey hunt..(or simply very lightly oil bore for storage, not patten breach area.. do oil the threads on the nipple .. just bore, choke tubes, and nipple threads.. and outside of gun, locks etc.. dont overdo it........... load with powder, one 1/8 inch thick good nitro card, two tc lubed felt wads, fiber wad to keep load from tipping, shot and over shot card.. you can stack dry wool felt wads over the two lubed ones, but they are expensive. fiber wads will come apart if going by full choke... your gun will go off if the cap fires and there is nothing in the channel like water, oil etc.. ...wool felt wads lubed with tc lube in the tube is best for choked guns.. but with 10 gauge you need to have a long enough column to keep from tipping the load.. dave

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don't clean with acetone. Its very dangerous stuff to breath. Use any form of cheap alcohol, including rubbing alcohol, even though it has a high content of water. It all evaporates. And keep a pipe cleaning in your kit to clear the flash channel on your gun before you go hunting. If you have a blockage in the flash channel, it will keep air from blowing through and out the nipple when you are running the RAMROD and jag with a patch, or wad down the barrel. You not only will feel it happening, but you will hear it, or, rather, NOT HEAR the " Hissing sound " that normal will occur when loading.

After you straighten those hammers so they are centering the nipples, do the test I suggested with lipstick or marking dye, and then grind off the face of the hammer so that the hammer strikes the nipple square. This will not only insure that you have continued ignition, but it will save the nipple from premature wearing down and out, as the blow of the hammer is distributed evenly around the entire mouth of the nipple. I like to fold over a sheet of paper towel, put it over the nipple and fire the hammer down on it. When you pull the hammer back to half cock to remove the paper, you should see something akin to a paper punch " hole " in the toweling, except the paper will not be cut clean through.

I had to do this operation on my CVA shotgun when it was new, and I occasionally have to replace the nipples when the inside hole starts wearing out to an unacceptable wider dimension. This condition was evidenced by the hammer being blow off the cap and the cap moving off the nipple before the hammer comes back down to hold part of it to the nipple. Since this is a safety issue, I just replace the worn nipples, with new ones, and make a note to buy replacements the next time I am at Friendship, or order other supplies from a dealer. I odn't have any misfires, now, and I don't worry about whether the gun is going to go off.

Part of that all this assurance is based on getting high enough up on the learning curve about how to clean the gun prior to going out to a range, or the field, to get rid of dried greases and oils from storage. The rest has to do with adjusting my cleaning and loading methods to reflect the relative humdity on the day I shoot. That is where all the advice on this forum comes in so handy.

 

[AkDan]

as for the no fires.

It's one barrel, on a consistent basis. It's done it dry, after fowling loads, after popping caps after cleaning (I've shot off up to 3 caps to see if it made a difference), sometimes it did, sometimes it didnt fire.

I'll do more playing when I get her back. My fathers coming up to fish early sept. and is bringing her with.


I don't quite understand this shot colum deal and the tipping mentioned. Can someone explain. I've tried the typical 1/8 nitro, lubed fiber wad, shot then over shot card and it seemed the longer my shot colum the worse the pattern got. I had to have to seperate loads one for the mod, one for the cyl as neither shot well out of both. Same powder, same shot, different wad configs.

 

[ffffg]

Patterns dont tell the whole story.. What i see happening is the longer column is giving you a good seal, and upping the power (not powder) enough to blow the pattern.. try reducing the powder but keeping the shot column long lets say 1 3/8 ounce of shot.. Use two nitro cards if you have a full choke and criss cross them, slightly folding them to get by the choke.. There is a tremendous lot of things going on here, and its impossible to say what is really going on with out a pattern, phone book under the pattern for pennetration test and a chronograph 8- 10 feet in front of the shotgun.. I know its over kill at the range , but all this saves mistakes on the field costing you years of missed clays, ducks, turkeys etc.. You can have great patterns with no power,, or bad patterns with much power, blowby, with some pellets having power, and others not,, or any comination.. Once you find a good load it can change when the temp drops or goes up.. Im not trying to discourage you and its starting to sound more complicated than it really is.. but a 10 gauge does cause more problems than a 20 or 16 or 12... the 10 is made for 110 grains of 2f, and 110 grains equivelent of lead shot, and this load with good nitro cards will minimize problems.. Under loading shot can cause tipping..
tipping is blowby caused by too short of shot column.. this can be stopped by a longer wad column under the shot and good fitting nitro cards.. .. Ive delt with this for years (years ago) not knowing what was going on, and finally ending up with making my own nitro cards, felt wads, and ending up with two black powder state championships and many other lesser championships with the pedersoli 10 sxs.. Pedersoli makes an extra full choke, and if your using that it will damage nitro cards if not put in right.. Keep it up, have fun,, im sorry for making this a chore, but the more info you have the easier in the long run it will be.. I shot many many many patterns with the 10, and used to burn a pound of 2f a day of practice with that gun.. dave

 

[Britsmoothy]

Don,t worry about the filing suggestion my freind just follow Pauls direction and you will see an instant result,you,re not going mad with the file- just a few strokes at a time. It won,t bite you :v It worked for me on my 12g Peder, shoots POA now and took little time. Peder don,t finish the crowns off to good and hence the problem.
Ignition prob with peders I have owned have been due to an overly tight flash hole in the nipple. Once opened up a tiny amount prob solved. A next to nothing increase is only required- you don,t need to poke your finger through it after :nono: I once had some caps that were no good, I did not realise untill one day I bought some differant ones and 100% ignition arrived so don,t trust the caps even if they do go pop!
When I,m going out with my gun I ask my neighbors if they mind me preparing my gun with a breif explanation (although thats not required any more). I swab out the bore and clear the nip holes, look through my nips and fit them as they are not kept in the gun for any great length of time. Now I tip some powder in-not much and ram a fibre wad down and outside fire them off. Now I charge to the usual ammount with powder and cards and go to the shoot, this way I only have to add shot and caps when I get there and it works every time. I only use OS cards for wads and no lubing what so ever- still seems to kill stuff ok :wink:
I had 10g peder too and it was fine, shot every thing with it although it was heavy. I also had another peder 12g that was loose barrel wise and I super glued some thin leather to the fore end ware the barrels sit, it worked but later noticed that I only had to pein the eye on the barrels the wedge fits into to effectivly pull the barrels down a little more :shake:
Now I no expert but I am sure that if you open them nips up a tiny amount and try some differant caps.
Snuggle them barrels down and buy a good 1"-11/4" file you will sort your turkey gun. It,s not rocket science :v
Oh and I love trad archery too only we not allowed to hunt over here with bow :barf: I,m not saying it don,t go on just that it ain,t supposed to :wink:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Isn't it sad that in the land of the long bow, where the mention of Agincourt and Crecy can still bring a feeling of pride, the bow is no longer allowed as a hunting implement. Robin Hood and his Merry Band must be turning in their graves...

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yep, it sad all right, the socialistic hoards over here like impossing their will on the individual. In britain you have to kill critters with out hurting them some how or blood letting etc but it ok to rear thousands of chickens in cramped shed that never see daylight and fed on s*@T.
In britain big bro won,t let you use a patched ball or any other M/L rifle on game even though there is no actuall law against it as they recon it not humane enough :barf: :shake: Enyet it,s ok to use a M/L shot gun. Is it me or have we lost something in the quest for progress?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I'm not certain that the quest is for progress. At some point in every society, the muzzy-headed idiots seem to take charge--at least for a while. We seem to be well on the the way down that path here. Soon it will probably be illegal to have a strong opinion.