German Boar Rifle(?)

[arquebus]

I traded into this rifle recently, & am posting it here to get some feedback & help with ID. The previous owner described it as a Boar Rifle.

It has an OAL of 44.5" with a 27.75" barrel. The barrel is octagon (1" at breach) for the first 24.5" where it changes to round (3/4" diameter), the round section is 3.25" long. Caliber is about .52 as one of my .535" roundballs won't quite enter the muzzle, unsure of rate of twist, but it's fairly slow.....maybe 1:60". The blade front sight is located at the end of the octagonal portion of the barrel & there is a 'bayonet lug' at 6 o'clock on the round portion about 1" ahead of the forend cap. The octagon section of the barrel has tapered down to 7/8" where it changes to round.
All furniture is brass, including two ramrod thimbles & entry pipe, there are two keys holding the barrel to the stock. The rifle has double-set triggers, a standard type sling swivel behind the trigger guard & a 'Jaeger' style one just ahead of the lower ramrod thimble.
There are no markings visible on the rifle, apart from a small 'S in square' proofmark under the barrel, & the number 3 appears once near the S, again on the breach. The rear sight is a flip-up style with two notches on the standing leaf & another three on the flip-up portion. There is also a cheekpiece in the Germanic style.
The rifle is not ornate &, due to the lack of maker's name, etc., I had thought it may be military as it looks similar to some Jaegerstutzen rifles I've seen & the caliber is about the same, but the lock doesn't seem military (ie robust) enough.
The prior owner said that the lug near the muzzle was for attaching the Boar hunting sword, but I've seen similar bayonet lugs on Jaegerstutzens, too. Also, the rear sight reminds me of one I've seen on some Lorenz rifle-muskets.
When I took the rifle apart yesterday I found an old piece of paper under the buttplate on which was written that the rifle was thought to be a Boar Rifle & that it was brought back from Germany in 1945.
I know there's a lot of expertise out there amongst the forum members & I'm hoping that Stophel, Mike Brooks, & others might offer their opinions. Thx. More pictures:

 

[crockett]

Looks sort of like the Mississippi Rifle except the trigger guard isn't the military style, there isn't the patch box, etc. The bayonet lug bespeaks military. I wonder if similar rifles were bought by private citizens or militias, etc. What you have may have been some sort of kit gun that was modified.
I would say any Plainsman from the 1840's to 1850's would have liked that rifle.

 

[arquebus]

Oh, another important piece of information regarding the rifle.....it has a Systeme a Tige breech.

 

[rayb]

If its a real boar rifle it may very well have been outfitted with a bayonet. IIRC there were pictures of same in Europe when I was there, but it was years ago and I can't find the reference.

Pigstickers with sword type bayonets or lances were also depicted.
rayb

 

[arquebus]

Another update! I measure the bore yesterday, it has eight sets of grooves/lands, 1:50" twist, .515" bore diameter, & .550" in the grooves. I was digging around in my bullet mold drawer & found an unused Lee 450gn .515" conical bullet mold, that I had bought for another project gun a few years ago & never got around to using. Looking at pictures online of Tige bullets the Lee one looks quite similar. I just cast up a batch & will try & get out to the range tomorrow or Thursday. I'll report back with what I discover.

 

[TFoley]

Oh, another important piece of information regarding the rifle.....it has a Systeme a Tige breech.

Dear Mr arquebus - The Tige system breech consists of a metal rod that is screwed into the breechplug (centered to the bore) onto which the lead projectile is driven when loading thus expanding the bore-sized bullet into the rifling.

Thort you'd like to know.

tac

 

[Extranero]

I recall seeing one of these somewhere, although I can't remember where. If I recall correctly its an Austrian military jeager. Stophel would probably know if he sees this thread.

Sean

 

[arquebus]

Extranero: At this point in the investigation it looks like this rifle is a German/Austrian Dorn-Stutzen, most likely having belonged to one of the (pre-unification) German states.
I, too am hoping that Stophel will offer his opinion as to what I have here.

TAC: Thanks for the clarification as to what a Tige-breeched rifle is. I was aware of this, but some others may not & I should have been a bit clearer in my earlier posting. Always appreciate your input.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

That should make an excellent hunting rifle with proper ammunition. I don't know if the Lee bullet will work in those deep grooves but it seems worth a try.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I would think accuracy will require an OP wad that is at least .550" in diameter to seal the gases behind that bullet. You don't want gases blowing down the grooves and cutting the Lead sides of the bullet. I might even consider a .550" diameter cushion wad, behind that bullet, since such diameter wads are available for use in 28 Gauge smoothbores.

 

[arquebus]

Paul said:

I would think accuracy will require an OP wad that is at least .550" in diameter to seal the gases behind that bullet. You don't want gases blowing down the grooves and cutting the Lead sides of the bullet.

Actually that would negate the design principal of the Tige-breech. The idea is to use a bore-size bullet (for ease of loading), which is then driven onto the Tige (spike) which will bump the bullet up to fit the grooves, thus eliminating gas blow-by......at least that's the theory!

I took the rifle to the range today. My initial shooting was done at 50yds. I used 60gns (volume)of Goex 2Fg with the 440gn .515" Lee bullet seated onto the Tige with three short drops of the range rod, I also changed the nipple to one that uses musket caps. After the third drop, you could hear a change in tone, suggesting that the bullet had seated as far as it could (I'm guessing here!).
Initial grouping was close to point of aim, using the lowest sight notch, with three-shot groups running 1.5-2", not great but a decent start. After about ten shots accuracy started to drop (I hadn't wiped the bore yet), & that was when I discovered that the ramrod jag, whilst ok for loading, was too big to allow a cleaning patch to be fitted into the muzzle. I gave the bore a cursory cleaning using the issue ramrod, which just has a 'tulip' head, after which accuracy returned to normal.
I was only able to recover one fired bullet, which was badly deformed, but it did show that the rifling was well engaged. I tried to get some better fired bullets by firing into a 5 gallon bucket of water at 50yds, as well as a 5" thick Yellow Pages phone book.....in both cases the bullet just sailed right on through both items, thru the target frame & buried itself into the backstop.
I also put a target out at 100yds, but the rifle seemed to be shooting at least a foot low at that range, plus loading was starting to get difficult & I didn't want to bother with the defacto cleaning system again, so I came home to modify the cleaning jag to better fit the bore & gave the rifle a good cleaning.....not an easy task with the Tige at the bottom of the barrel!
I'll try the rifle out again in a few days & experiment with a few other things. The difference in point of impact from 50 to 100 yards concerns me a bit.....maybe the bullet is too heavy?

 

[TFoley]

I would think accuracy will require an OP wad that is at least .550" in diameter to seal the gases behind that bullet. You don't want gases blowing down the grooves and cutting the Lead sides of the bullet. I might even consider a .550" diameter cushion wad, behind that bullet, since such diameter wads are available for use in 28 Gauge smoothbores.

Please note that the Tige system breech does neither permit nor requires the use of any kind of wad. The base of the bullet has to make violent contact with the 'spike' in order to expand - you can't do that with a wad in the way. The expansion of the base of the bullet on the spike is what seals the bore, not any kind of wad.

tac

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have only seen drawings of this kind of gun, and the " spike " does not appear as what I consider to be a spike, with a relatively sharp point.

I was merely thinking of those very deep grooves, and how anyone could possibly force enough lead into them to seal the gases. Perhaps this is why the system did not win wide acceptance.

From your description, it would appear to be impossible to use a wad. Thanks for the correction. I learn something here all the time. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[Billnpatti]

I am not familiar with your rifle but I was thinking that it might be a Boer rifle not a Boar rifle. Could it have been one purchased by the Boers in South Africa prior to the Boer War of 1899-1902. It is unlikely that it would have been used in this war since cartridge guns were the guns of choice by that time but they could have been a much earlier purchase by the Boers. It has a strong military appearance and with the bayonette lug, it almost has to be military. Anyway, just a thought. :hmm:

 

[arquebus]

Interesting theory, but I don't think so. The rifle is documented as being brought to the U.S. from Germany in 1945.....as a GI's souvenier I expect.
As far as it being a military rifle, I'm pretty confident that is the case. Research is starting to suggest that it is indeed German or Austrian & was most likely made for one of the many semi-independant states that existed in the mid-19th century.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yes, I'm sure cleaning a tige breech would be a challenge and you would also have to limit the powder charge to a level below the tip of the tige but not much below. Lee does make a lighter R.E.A.L. bullet in .50 caliber, 250 grains I think, and that may work better, or not. :haha: If you have the specs of the original bullet there are some folks who will cut a custom mold for surprisingly little money.

 

[nkbj]

And, seeing as such a fine piece deserves to have a bullet that matches it, it might be worth while to examine museum sites to find an example.

 

[TFoley]

I have only seen drawings of this kind of gun, and the " spike " does not appear as what I consider to be a spike, with a relatively sharp point.

I was merely thinking of those very deep grooves, and how anyone could possibly force enough lead into them to seal the gases. Perhaps this is why the system did not win wide acceptance.

From your description, it would appear to be impossible to use a wad. Thanks for the correction. I learn something here all the time. :surrender: :thumbsup:

Sir, Perhaps the word 'spike 'is a mis-nomer and the word 'pillar' is better, which is what we call it in English.

tac

 

[arquebus]

Good Cheer said:

And, seeing as such a fine piece deserves to have a bullet that matches it, it might be worth while to examine museum sites to find an example.

Absolutely!, that is why I'm doing the research to find out exactly what I have. I've been able to find a number of illustrations online of tige/pillar-breech bullets. While some of the bullets seem to resemble the standard 'Minie' shape, albeit with a solid base, most seem to be 'wasp-waisted', something like the Wilkinson bullet which was a compression design, that is it grew shorter & wider upon firing.....this is the style of bullet used in the Austrian 'Lorenz' rifle-musket.
Here's a photo of the Wilkinson compared to a regular Minie:

 

[nkbj]

Awesome man awesome.