Getting Started with a North Star West, NW Trade Gun

[spudnut]

No really , Welcome to the world of smoothbore trade guns , the ONLY way to go :thumbsup:

 

[Wes/Tex]

HAHA :rotf: Green grass is very HC/PC especialy for arty

No kidding ...even a big handful of green clover! Used it once to wad the Twin Sisters at a San Jacinto Day festivities around '72. Since I needed some myself, I used a big ole wad in the Potsdam. Since I"d scared the Gem. silly before, I got put on the downwind of the line when we fired our salute. Since the dignitaries were sitting down wind of me...I showered the Lt.Governor and others with clover! bwah-ha-ha

 

[coloradoclyde]

Am I the only one that can't access Northstars web page? Is their sit down?

 

[Luke MacGillie]

With Respect paid to who it is due:
~~ ~ CURLY GUSTOMSKI ~ ~ ~

his trade guns are really rare...nowadays.

Yep, I don't know where they all went, same with Sharron Hawken's Used to be everyone at Friendship had em, now folks want you to pay 2500 bucks for a 35 year old shot out gun if you can find one. I was lucky and picked up one made from one of Curly's kits last winter. Its a 58 instead of the 62 I really wanted, but its got some nostalgia to it for sure.

 

[jamesthomas]

People need to know that you don't have to go with the barrel or lock a company offers with their rifles and smoothbores, you can always buy another barrel or lock and have the company use it instead of their barrel. Its what I'm doing with Pecatonica's Early Full Stock Fowler, I sent them a Colerain 42 inch Griffin profile barrel in 16ga. to use instead of their barrel and it only cost me an extra 20 or 25 dollars. I'm also going to put in a Queen Ann Lock in it. Always, ask about the profile of the barrel a company is using, or if you can provide your own wood.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Clyde, try this.
http://www.northstarwest.com/Default.aspx

 

[coloradoclyde]

Thanks Wes,
That's the address i've been trying for two days.
It's working now :idunno: must have been a down server.

 

[pargent]

:thumbsup: :rotf:

 

[Birdwatcher]

People need to know that you don't have to go with the barrel or lock a company offers with their rifles and smoothbores, you can always buy another barrel or lock and have the company use it instead of their barrel. Its what I'm doing with Pecatonica's Early Full Stock Fowler, I sent them a Colerain 42 inch Griffin profile barrel in 16ga. to use instead of their barrel and it only cost me an extra 20 or 25 dollars. I'm also going to put in a Queen Ann Lock in it. Always, ask about the profile of the barrel a company is using, or if you can provide your own wood.

Indeed, but I believe the selection of a non-standard lock is what caused me grief with my own specific fowler. Wanting a big lock for tough use and reliable ignition I asked for a Chambers Colonial Virginia lock instead of the standard Siler. I could, for an extra $100.

TVM uses a production line of at least three guys (including Mr. Avance), each one on a different task, turning out around four guns a week. In fairness to TVM, I ain't heard of others getting a lemon like mine but, apparently my larger lock didn't fit the usual jigs and when it arrivedsuch that it was sent out with a pan/barrel gap like this...

Being a total noob I had no idea that anything was wrong. Fortunately the whole reason for me getting this gun at that time was to shoot it for the first time with my crowd of young nephews up in NY. On the way up that summer ('09) we stopped in for a day at the spring shoot at Friendship. The first guy who looked at it immediately pointed out the pan/barrel gap and advised me not to shoot it until it was reset.

A major bummer, but I arranged to leave NY a day early so as to stop in at TVM in Corinth on the way back to have the lock re-inlet which took about an hour. Actually the lock is set in somewhat at an angle now with the top edge recessed into the lock and the hammer at a slight angle over the barrel such that flints must be offset a bit to avoid gouging the barrel.

Recall I was a total, trusting noob at the time and took the gun back when it was handed to me. I then put up the gun for two years, see for me firing it for the first time with my young nephews up on NY was a big deal.

Actually I was unaware of the other issue with this gun until I posted pics online about the barrel-gouging issue and got feedback...

...relative to the pan the vent is way-high.....

...and I was getting poor ignition. Note in the pic the recessed top edge of the lock. I have since addressed the ignition issue by having the vent reamed out to 0.064".

All these poor build issues related to the lock IMHO are a probable result of me specifying a larger lock in an otherwise production-line situation.

I have been asked why I don't return it. Well I DID, in person, and it was handed back to me in person, by the head of the company. Not knowing any better at the time, I took it back on good faith.

Sadly, today the only mention TVM makes on their website now re: barrel taper is "special straight barrel" :shake: As a noob I would STILL have no idea as to the major significance of that.

Anyways.... fortunately I now own both those major pictoral reference works in our hobby... "Of Sorts for Provincials" and "For Trade and Treaty"...

....turns out more n' a few poorly assembled and/or shaped guns existed back then too.

IIRC tapered barrels were universal tho', even in mass-produced muskets, up until the Nineteenth Century at least.

Birdwatcher

 

[matt denison]

"People need to know that you don't have to go with the barrel or lock a company offers with their rifles and smoothbores, you can always buy another barrel or lock and have the company use it instead of their barrel."


Not at North Star West you can't. We make our own stuff, locks, barrels, trigger guards, butt plates - all of it. That way we can provide as correct as possible trade guns and muskets. IF you want to use other components then you are welcome to find a custom maker to build your gun for you. But, that is where a Noob can get into trouble by picking and choosing the wrong parts for a particular type of gun.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Sadly, since it falls on us here to actually WARN people about the issue of barrel taper.. :shake:

This is what an untapered octagon to round barrel profile looks like....

All you see sighting down the barrel is the short octagon top flat and the top of the front sight somewhere out there in space.

And from the way-cool department, this is just some of the NY detachment on the Minisink Ford Battlefield back then when I decided we all needed a real flinter (I'm the fat guy)...

..and this is some of the crew (there's seven of 'em) last year, firing Uncle Bird's flintlock has gotten to be an annual event when I go up....

....and since I STILL don't have a good fowler as I understand the term, one of these years I get to buy another. NS West is high on my list.

The TVM.... and my .50 cal Southern Mountain Rifle....

...and my as-yet unspecified future fowler will likely be migrating up to NY to stay after I pass on :wink:

Birdwatcher

 

[Rifleman1776]

I will be wanting to shoot a .61 caliber bare ball

Lot of good advice so far. But, a couple caveats. :shocked2: The size ball you want to use means nothing. It is what the gun wants that determines what you will use. Not all 20 ga./.62" cal. barrels are created equal.
Mine, with a .600" patched ball requires a big mallet and much pounding to seat.
I plan to get a custom made .590" mould to use with it. In the meantime, I have acquired a bunch of hard lead which casts smaller and will try some thin patching to see if that eases things. If not, then an order will go off to Jeff Tanner for the .590" mould.

 

[Mike in VA]

Good grief. I'm sure glad I read this thread before I invested. Thanks to all who shared their experiences with TVM. I ain't going that direction at all. Looks like a NW Chief Grade for me.

 

[jamesthomas]

Also that non-tapered barrel probably weighs around 4 1/2 pounds, were as my 16ga. Griffin barrel weighs a little over 3 pounds. You can go to TOTW and find the weights of the barrels they have, some of them will weigh 5 pounds :shake: The problem is that in the lower gauges (28ga. 24ga.) the profile stays the same, you just have a smaller hole in the barrel. Example would be Tracks Double Wedding Band Oct to Rd. barrel. The 20ga. is 4.25lbs. the 24ga. is 4.65lbs. and the 28ga, is quote "around 5 pounds". this is for a 42 inch barrel. Those are some heavy barrels to be smoothbores in my book.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Thanks to all who shared their experiences with TVM.

In fairness to TVM I have heard nothing bad about their rifles, which may be a good value for the money as far as I know. Barrel taper doesn't seems to be nearly the issue with rifles as it is with fowlers, seems like only purists care much if their rifle barrel is tapered and swamped. and rifles tend to run heavier anyway.

Point of fact that Southern Mountain Rifle I have has an untapered barrel, but the slender 44" barrel relative to the bore (.50) and especially the slimmed-down stock brings it in at around 7 1/2 pounds. It is actually very plain with only one ramrod thimble, no ornamentation, no sideplate and no buttplate, the grace of form and attractiveness of the piece derives solely from the well-shaped stock. Its a one-off by a custom builder out of Georgia.

Its a great conversation topic when I get to do the Alamo, being an example of what a Southerner would likely have carried to Texas in 1835. The austere finish of these "Poor Boy" Southern Mountain rifles having more to do with the values and religious sentiments of the owner than with poverty.

..and it does bring up a point being as I found it used, right here on the classifieds...

...I may never buy a NEW flintlock again, folks who buy quality guns usually treat them well, and very good deals can be had. IMHO the most important thing to pay attention to is LOP.

The same time I was putting my serious money down on my TVM, someone on another board was selling a clean and correct custom 20 gauge fowler with my preferred LOP for only $700. I'd bet money that fowler used was better than mine new even disregarding the difference in price.

Birdwatcher

 

[Birdwatcher]

Those are some heavy barrels to be smoothbores in my book.

I try not to dwell on the fact that my fowler has what amounts to a length of heavy steel pipe for a barrel :grin: I have been using the heck out of it regardless, both shooting and reenacting.

The best I've ever picked up as a Mike Brooks .62 cal. Type G trade gun.... OMG.... it weighed six pounds and change even with a 44 (??) in barrel. It was just a joy to handle, accurate too.

Birdwatcher

 

[coloradoclyde]

The 20ga. is 4.25lbs. the 24ga. is 4.65lbs. and the 28ga, is quote "around 5 pounds". this is for a 42 inch barrel. Those are some heavy barrels to be smoothbores in my book.

I'm gettin confused.
does anyone make a 28ga that is lighter than a 20ga?

 

[jamesthomas]

The 20ga. is 4.25lbs. the 24ga. is 4.65lbs. and the 28ga, is quote "around 5 pounds". this is for a 42 inch barrel. Those are some heavy barrels to be smoothbores in my book.

I'm gettin confused.
does anyone make a 28ga that is lighter than a 20ga?

Not that I know of, I was just pointing out the fact that Track could have had a different profile on this barrel for the smaller gauges allowing them to be at least a pound or so lighter making for a better handling Fowler.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Which brings me back around to the question that I have been meaning to ask Laffindog.
What about North star west's weights?

 

[Malleus]

Wow folks that's so much for all the replies!
I checked out Bob's page & it indeed has some great info on it. This thread certainly cleared my mind on what to get for the gun. I'm looking forward to playing around with loads etc. to get her all dialed in.

Northstar West was indeed down for a bit however, it seems to be pack up. The dropdowns were wonky on me but i found I could select guns if I right clicked on "Catalog" then double clicked on the gun.

colorado clyde, I'm not sure on the exact weight of the Northwest Trade gun but one of my initial comments was, "Wow, I could carry this all day easily" If I were to venture a guess I'd say it may weigh in at 7lbs. I can say it is lighter than my Benelli Supernova or my Enfield No4 MkII
Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks again folks!