Goex vs. Swiss in Pedersoli .45 Frontier Rifle

[PastorB]

I posted this in the General Muzzleloading section a few days ago. I copied and pasted it here, as there seems to be some interest in chronograph results.

Took my Pedersoli Frontier flint in .45 to the range today and fired over the chrono. Used Goex 3f and Swiss 3f, both new unopened cans kept is pristine conditions. The Swiss has given me higher velocity in revolvers, but not anything dramatic. However, in the 39" barrel of my Pedersoli, the Swiss showed a LOT more ummph. All loads were measured volumetrically, using 3f, a.440 rb, and .010 linen patch lubed with whatever Ox-Yoke puts on them. I did not measure group sizes, as I am not a great shot with a flintlock. I can hit clay birds around 70 yards, which is good enough for me and what I do. I had zero failures to fire for 35 shots (7 five shot strings) and only one slight delay. I cleaned the barrel after each 5 shot string, but did nothing else, including knapping the flint. Used the same powder in the pan as the main charge, here are the average velocities. The patches I found could have been reused, no evidence of burning.

Goex 3f. Swiss 3f

50 gr. 1442 fps no shots

60 gr. 1557 fps 1814 fps

75 gr. 1694 fps. 2090 fps

90 gr. 1967. fps 2206 fps

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

That's a pretty substantial difference across the board! Gotta wonder, it seems as though this would have to be accomplished via higher pressure? Comparing 3f to 3f I would think that burn rates should be similar enough to be a marginal factor. I certainly wouldn't expect the Swiss 3f to burn that dramatic slower as to have burn of longer enough duration to make that big if a difference.... Almost has to be higher overall pressure?

Very interesting though... Thanks for sharing.

 

[rafterob]

Not a velocity comparison but in my .45 I shoot 45 grains Swiss 3f vs. 65 grains Goex 3f.

 

[hanshi]

Those are very interesting results. I'm a little bit surprised the Swiss wasn't as remarkable in the revolver. In one of my .45 rifles 70 grains of Goex 3F gave around 1800 fps; haven't chronographed the Swiss 3F yet and haven't chronographed my second .45 rifle for comparison.

 

[DuncNZ]

Great results , How was the velocity deviation shot to shot with each powder ?

 

[maillemaker]

Swiss is known/said to be "hotter" than Goex in many circles, and your data seems to confirm that. They say you can generally use less Swiss than Goex and get an equivalent bang. This generally means less fouling since fouling is directly related to the volume of powder burned.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Thanks for posting. I see the same results in my .54 rifles. Also a significant difference in elevation / POI between Goex and Swiss even at 50 yards.

 

[godutch]

Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[nhmoose]

Good info but what kind can be found to buy NOW.

 

[TerryK]

Schuetzen black powder and Swiss 1.5F is at Graf and Sons right now.

 

[kemart17]

I posted this in the General Muzzleloading section a few days ago. I copied and pasted it here, as there seems to be some interest in chronograph results.

Took my Pedersoli Frontier flint in .45 to the range today and fired over the chrono. Used Goex 3f and Swiss 3f, both new unopened cans kept is pristine conditions. The Swiss has given me higher velocity in revolvers, but not anything dramatic. However, in the 39" barrel of my Pedersoli, the Swiss showed a LOT more ummph. All loads were measured volumetrically, using 3f, a.440 rb, and .010 linen patch lubed with whatever Ox-Yoke puts on them. I did not measure group sizes, as I am not a great shot with a flintlock. I can hit clay birds around 70 yards, which is good enough for me and what I do. I had zero failures to fire for 35 shots (7 five shot strings) and only one slight delay. I cleaned the barrel after each 5 shot string, but did nothing else, including knapping the flint. Used the same powder in the pan as the main charge, here are the average velocities. The patches I found could have been reused, no evidence of burning.

Goex 3f. Swiss 3f

50 gr. 1442 fps no shots

60 gr. 1557 fps 1814 fps

75 gr. 1694 fps. 2090 fps

90 gr. 1967. fps 2206 fps

that is a bigger differance then i would have expected. thanks for sharing

 

[Bushfire]

I too was blown away by swiss and will use nothing else now. With 110gr Wano 2F I was POA at 50m, with 100gr Swiss 2F I'm POA at 100m.

In my 54 flinter

 

[dave951]

Been telling folks Swiss is the stuff. Next I'd like to see the same comparison between Swiss and Old Eynsford (a Goex product). Putting Swiss up against standard Goex is hardly fair, think F1 car against a Yugo.

 

[dave951]

Good info but what kind can be found to buy NOW.

Powder is not unobtainium for those who bother to search for it. I bought a half case and 2k caps last month. If you're looking in a brick n mortar place, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[olskool]

i have no idea what my 45 early Virginias velocity is with 55gr. of 3F goex, i just know it will shoot the same hole at 50yds, over and over again, that is all i really care about,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)

 

[PastorB]

I post velocity information strictly for the curious. My go-to load in about everything from .40 to .58, except my shotguns, is 60 grains of whatever powder is handy. I save my real black for use in flintlocks, and shoot mostly Pyrodex, which is easy to get and half the cost of 777, in everything else. I read many years ago (please don't ask for a quotation, it was 40+ years ago in a book!) that fellas back "in the day" loaded just enough powder to get the right "crack", and that was considered a fine load. I'm assuming that meant breaking the sound barrier, even though I doubt they understood the reason why it "cracked". Another method of obtaining a proper load was to cover a ball, placed in the palm of your hand, with powder until it was not visible. I have done this as a test, and it is more consistent than you would think, and yields a result of just over 1 grain of powder per bore diameter. About 65 grains with a .570 ball, for example.

The modern crowd, who read a lot of magazines and forums, say that you need 1000 ft./lbs. on target to cleanly harvest deer sized game. My favorite load for kids in my cheap .50 Traditions Deer Hunters is 60 grains of powder, and a PRB. It goes just over 1200fps (crack!) and gets around 550 ft./lbs. at the muzzle. It kills deer just fine.

 

[dave951]

The modern crowd, who read a lot of magazines and forums, say that you need 1000 ft./lbs. on target to cleanly harvest deer sized game. My favorite load for kids in my cheap .50 Traditions Deer Hunters is 60 grains of powder, and a PRB. It goes just over 1200fps (crack!) and gets around 550 ft./lbs. at the muzzle. It kills deer just fine.

Exactly. The best load is one that is accurate, you can shoot accurately, and can penetrate to the vital regions. A run of the mill 50cal with PRB set up properly will put any bambi on this continent in the freezer.

 

[DuncNZ]

I was told many years ago by someone , maybe The Mad Monk , that Swiss powder was like the old time rifle powders and all the others were like the old time musket powders . The way they perform in my rifles I am inclined to believe it .

 

[Frontiersman77]

I shot Goex years ago before I found out about Swiss. I had to swipe my barrel about once every 3 to 4 shots or my point of impact would start climbing up the paper. After switching to Swiss I never wipe my barrel. Last time I shot my .50 cal flintlock I had 32 rounds through the barrel when I finished sighting it in and I had never cleaned between shots. Also the last shots were just as accurate as the first. Then when I cleaned the barrel the 4th patch down came back out looking almost white. My buddy had been shooting with me and was using some old Blackpowder that had been given to him with no label on the can. We were both shooting 75gr loads with .490 PRB and 18 thousands pillow ticking lubed with Wonder Lube. He had to wipe every 3 shots and at cleanup my 4th patch down looked better than his 10th. We were both sold on Swiss after that.

 

[longcruise]

@PastorB Wonder what would be found if one were to weigh the two powders? IOW, what is the weight of the two when poured from the same volumetric measure?

We buy by weight and shoot/chronograph by volume.