Going public!

[kemart17]

Ok folks this may take some time but I have an issue with our licencing (Britain).

It appears " police intelligence" as it was put to me by my firearms licensing liaison officer and also a police force from hundreds of miles away (leading me to believe in an informant) has been in touch with him to get in touch with me as they all believe I am breaking the law.
This is perplexing as the shooting of a solid projectile from a smoothbore that ticks all the boxes so can be held on a shotgun licence can not use ammunition loaded with a single slug all ball.

This is a copy of the law.
iii) Shotgun cartridges
2.53 A shotgun certificate is not required to possess or acquire shotgun cartridges containing
five or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridges
are covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificate
authorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotgun
cartridges. All single bulleted ammunition, for example solid slug, spherical ball or
projectiles for birdscaring equipment, is subject to the requirement for a firearm certificate.

As I have always understood this is that it is in relation to ammunition for breech loaders thus by default muzzleloaders are exempt.
However my liaison officer says " I simply can not assume I can shoot solid ball from a muzzleloader".
That is very perplexing indeed. To me that means if something in law is not restricting something I still can not do it!!
Lots of humour could be written on that bases on a wide range of topics!

Any way it looks like I am being watched!
Good for a self acclaimed free country!
It appears and I hope I am wrong that mail for on line comps here have not made their destination! This leads me to believe they have been intercepted by monitoring conversations on here by me.

So it looks like I have to stop using ball and stick to shot.
For years I have applied for a patch ball rifle to be added to my firearms certificate but they will not allow it for hunting! I have had and can have a breech loader that can hurl a bullet for miles but a ball long rifle that struggles to go 1000 yards errrrr no!

Then after finding a loop hole in the law regarding smoothbores muzzleloaders am jumped on for assuming! Assuming what? Assuming I can hunt a rabbit thus or enter a postal match!

I never realised just how evil a criminal I really am but I am so glad my hard earned taxes are going to the prevention of serious crime!
I can forsee me losing my licenses soon and won't it make the British public so much safer!

So there you have folks, modern Britain hasn't changed much at all!

B.

Brit,
im hurtin for you man, hang in there.

those laws are crazy, but i hate to say the USA is heading in the direction also... look at California, ugh!!!!

KM

 

[kemart17]

Thanks y'all.
I should count my blessings I guess.

I can still use lead for most my hunting.
I can get black powder.
And I have hunting land and woodlands.
The hunting seasons are lengthy and unlimited.

Take care.

B.

yes, always good to take your blessings where you find them. words to live by

 

[Colonial Boy]

This is outside the discussion but pertinent to all those who hear what wonderful firearm laws we have in Australia.

Just one small example of how 'good' laws work; a friend of mine who is a farmer is a keen muzzleloading shooter, he also has breech loaders; he can take his M17 (.30/06) outside his back door and legally fire it, however, if he wishes to practice with his LePage repro target pistol he must travel 30 miles to the range.
To fire his target ml on his own property is illegal.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Same here. Go figure

B.

 

[lyman54]

Same here. Go figure

B.

Same here too. Nuts

 

[gharrod]

I too have given the same silent ''thank you" to my British, Irish, Scotch, Welsh and German ancestors who came across the pond in the early to mid-1700's. Because of them, I can own firearms with minimal hassle, drink cold beer, and drive on the RIGHT side of the road! (;-)

 

[bud in pa]

My view is that one should always support the Police in the interest of a peaceful society, and to uphold the law. However where a Police force is attempting to extend their authority further than the law allows for, then this needs to be politely, but firmly, challenged. It is for the courts and Parliament to interpret and make the law, the Police are there to uphold it.

Whilst it is reasonable to expect Police to exercise discretion where the law allows for it, it is certainly not acceptable for the Police to extend their authority where the law does not make such provision, particularly when there is no clear threat or issue that requires this action. It is unacceptable for the Police to threaten actions which would not stand up in court on the basis that the subject is unable to defend themselves. That is a very short path to tyranny..

There have been a number of technical developments such as Bump Stocks and MMARS actions which have appeared to try and circumvent the rules on automatic and semi automatic firearms. I have some sympathy with the authorities over their attempts to control such developments within the law, particularly where the need for such devices and the motivation of the users is questionable. The position regarding muskets however is fundamentally different. Smooth bore, muzzle loading long arms loaded with a single ball have been in continuous use in these islands from at least the 15th Century. They have been used for sporting, defensive and military use over the centuries and have featured in legislation many times over this period. The Police cannot claim that they are something new, creating a novel threat that could not have been anticipated by the drafters of the law.

UK firearms law is a mess. Instead of maintaining a central element of coherent law, the situation has been allowed to develop piecemeal, with bits of legislation scattered across numerous acts as a result of political point scoring and knee jerking. Most of the recent elements have been badly drafted by largely ignorant administrators overly influenced by unrepresentative pressure groups. That said, the UK firearms law generally works, and provided an individual has a reasonable purpose for possessing firearms, there is usually not a problem. The UK media however has a view that "everything is banned" and that any incident involving a firearm is a cue for more "investigative journalism" and chest beating complaints to "tighten up the law". The Police are clearly influenced by this, and have a habit of playing along.

The Police are not the Law, and must gently be reminded of this when they forget...!

If the Police have a concern with Mr Smoothie's use of firearms for rabbit and squirrel control, then they need to make this case. I have no knowledge or understanding of Mr Smoothie's character or intention, however if he presents a threat to public safety by his activities, then there are other ways to challenge him. Frankly, if he poses such an unacceptable threat to the extent that the Police are making up new law, then perhaps he is not a fit person to possess even a shotgun licence? Again, I would suggest that the British Association for Shooting and Conservation might have a view...?

You mentioned bump stocks which mimic full auto fire. What I don't understand is why there are so many restrictions on firearms? Read the Second Amendment. Plain English.

 

[Atticus69]

You mentioned bump stocks which mimic full auto fire. What I don't understand is why there are so many restrictions on firearms? Read the Second Amendment. Plain English.

Bud,
It is fairly simple why there are restrictions.The second amendment is about 1 thing, pure and simple----the populace retaining the means to overthrow the government, which is after all what the founding fathers did. Restrictions are made by the people in government who generally find the idea that you may have the means to not do what they think is best for you to be repugnant.

 

[Zonie]

Lets keep the discussion about Second Amendment rights to a minimum in this topic.

If you want to discuss the 2nd Amendment, we have a special place for doing that in the Premium Member section.

 

[Felix the Cat]

You mentioned bump stocks which mimic full auto fire. What I don't understand is why there are so many restrictions on firearms? Read the Second Amendment. Plain English.

Hi Bud,

I share your concerns, however the discussion was about restrictions in UK not the US..! Contrary to much of US opinion, we are allowed firearms in UK although there is a much more restrictive regime. Automatic rifles have always been banned in UK, and semis over .22RF were banned in the late 80s. Bump stocks are a clear attempt to allow .22 semi autos to mimic full autos. I don't have a problem with the Police seeking to challenge their use.

In the case of the OP, the Police are trying to impose restrictions on a capability that is not restricted by law. (and, remembering the subject of this board, pertains to muzzle loading firearms...!)

As we do not have a written constitution in the UK, it follows that we do not have amendments to that constitution...!

 

[45man]

Muzzle loaders in the US and antique arms have little restrictions. They can be shipped in the mail with no FFL. Yet we can't buy a suppressor without jumping through hoops for a few years and a lot of money. Some countries require them to hold noise down.
Why a muzzle loader is considered a danger makes no sense.It would be like having farmers with pitch forks fighting a modern army. Today we do not fight but vote. It comes down to the people to get and keep freedoms. Immigrants flood the US to escape and it because they are disarmed and can't fight back against repressive governments. Then when a tragedy happens the person is not blamed but the tools they use so the tools are banned. Forks are dangerous. When has a mass shooting been done with a ML? When has a criminal EVER used a ML today? We are seeing red flag laws where a neighbor says another has guns. Police break in and confiscate all without cause. Might be a million dollars of an antique collection.
Memorial day is Monday where millions of our men gave all to save not only our country but England, France. We freed the German and Japanese people. South Korea and more. Yet they still restrict the population. Brits would still call our men in arms if in danger.

 

[Felix the Cat]

Some good points 45man, although I think the argument about national defence and firearms is a bit different in UK. I think this is a function of the balance between the national fear of external attack and the wish of the legislation to disarm the population..! I think UK and US have a long tradition of mutual support and military respect? (drawing a careful line after 1812 you understand...!)

I think we need as a society to ensure individuals do not offer a threat to the rest of the population, but this is difficult to do where sanctions against the irresponsible are often weak..?

In the case of the OP, I do have some concerns about his wish to hunt small game with a smoothbore! Back in the day when that was all that existed, that is what you used, however I do wonder why you would want to do this these days..? The aim of hunting should be to dispatch the quarry in the most humane fashion as possible.. For a single projectile firearm, I think this needs to be a rifle..!

I am a bit curious as to why the Police do not issue him with an Firearms Licence to allow him to do this.. presumably he has permission to shoot over the land he is currently using (otherwise he is trespassing with a firearm, which is a serious crime in UK...)?

 

[45man]

Agree and it would seem the landowners permission should be enough. At one time the brits took over most of the known world by arms and it took arms in this country to depose them. Then we became allies and beat the Germain's with arms. Then they fought the Scots and Irish that are really their own country. The Queen still wants to hold power over the people as a dictatorship. Seems to go back to Robin Hood killing the Kings deer.
At one time England was safe and Bobbies carried a stick but now the Police are as well armed as a swat team. If an immigrant breaks into your home to do harm and you respond, you go to jail.
The reason the Japanese never invaded the US was because almost every citizen had a gun. France is the same and other countries that are being invaded by radicals. The Pope says we should not build a wall but the Vatican has one over 20' high. Sheeple allow it and to be disarmed is the first thing for control. There is no need for violence today but we vote to get rid of nut cases. It gets harder all the time since there are more nut cases then ever. We have crazy people in our Govn't now. AOC says we should get rid of daylight saving time since it gives an hour more sunlight to the day and that heats the earth more for global warming.

 

[Felix the Cat]

I think we are drifting a bit into politics here 45man, and perhaps this is broadening the issue more than is sensible on what is supposed to be a non political board...?

The technical issue over the UK use of smoothbores is that in order to own a rifle for game shooting, you have to demonstrate that you have access to land suitable for the firearm you are asking for. This test is not required for a shotgun licence. I would be concerned if the OP is trying to use a muzzle loader to shoot quarry on land for which he does not have access to shoot.

He needs to be aware that this could be "Armed Trespass" or "Carriage of firearms in a public place" neither of which are trivial..

If he does have access to suitable land, the question that needs to be answered is why the Police are not giving him permission to use a rifle? If he is considered suitable to have access to a shotgun, then why is he being refused access to a rifle if that is what he should be using for taking game? I see little justification for using a single ball in a smooth bore to take game otherwise..

Unlike in the states, we do not have open tracts of land where hunters can operate freely. Much of the UK is highly urbanised and the need to check where arms are to be used is not unreasonable.

I am not getting into any arguments over bearing arms for defence, which is an entirely different issue..!

 

[Britsmoothy]

I think we are drifting a bit into politics here 45man, and perhaps this is broadening the issue more than is sensible on what is supposed to be a non political board...?

The technical issue over the UK use of smoothbores is that in order to own a rifle for game shooting, you have to demonstrate that you have access to land suitable for the firearm you are asking for. This test is not required for a shotgun licence. I would be concerned if the OP is trying to use a muzzle loader to shoot quarry on land for which he does not have access to shoot.

He needs to be aware that this could be "Armed Trespass" or "Carriage of firearms in a public place" neither of which are trivial..

If he does have access to suitable land, the question that needs to be answered is why the Police are not giving him permission to use a rifle? If he is considered suitable to have access to a shotgun, then why is he being refused access to a rifle if that is what he should be using for taking game? I see little justification for using a single ball in a smooth bore to take game otherwise..

Unlike in the states, we do not have open tracts of land where hunters can operate freely. Much of the UK is highly urbanised and the need to check where arms are to be used is not unreasonable.

I am not getting into any arguments over bearing arms for defence, which is an entirely different issue..!

If you read my previous comments you would of noticed I hold a firearms licence and I am very experienced in rifle ownership.
If you read the home guidance to the police you will find any requests to hunt with muzzleloading rifles is to be rejected, despite no law against such exists.
Your opinion as to why I should want to hunt with a ball is value less. You are entitled to it of course but it is useless.
I hunt how I do because I can and I am pretty good at it thank you.
If you wish to encourage a certain way of thinking as you suggest about being humane maybe you would like all shot guns banished from the scene! Maybe you think archery hunting is wrong also, the the UK has it right and all the American archery hunters are wrong.
Why not suggest they are not being as humane as possible.
Please sir, keep your negative suggestions directed towards me to yourself thank you!

B.

 

[Felix the Cat]

I was not aware of any direction within the HO guidance that specifically forbids the use of muzzle loaders for taking game. I have been through the guidance again, and cannot see any such prohibition.. perhaps you could point it out?

As you will be aware, the Deer Acts specify calibre and muzzle energy for taking these species. The section on the imposition of additional conditions also makes suggestions as to suitable calibres and energies for taking fox etc, but is not specific about ground game. It does however say that quarry should be taken humanely.

I am simply questioning your logic in using ball in a smoothbore gun for taking game, when either a shotgun or a rifle would ensure a cleaner kill. My view is that if the Police are refusing you an FAC variation for this, then you should challenge it. Given your description, I see no reason for them to refuse it, even if you want to use a suitable muzzle loading rifle, provided it is capable of delivering a clean kill as many are..!

I have no involvement in bow hunting and have no views I wish to add on this subject.

If you are simply wanting to shoot game with a musket, then I cannot see how the Police can stop you, provided that you have permission to shoot on the land. My concern is why you would wish to? I simply don't believe you can place a shot accurately enough with a musket to ensure a clean kill...!

We may just have to agree to disagree..

 

[Zonie]

Having seen many posts by Britsmoothy in the hunting section showing the rabbits and squirrels he's dispatched with his small smooth bore, I have no doubt that he is deadly accurate with his single ball loads.

As for a single roundball's killing power, it has nothing to do with whether it was shot from a smoothbore or from a rifled gun. It's velocity and energy is comparable. At the close ranges Britsmoothy is shooting, so is the accuracy if the powder/ball load is what the gun likes and the shooter is adept with it as Britsmoothy has repeatedly demonstrated he is.

 

[azmntman]

Laws are often ridiculous. I'll just say when they take our guns (and they never will, really) you'all want ME ON THE JURY when yer busted with one ya didn't surrender. May come to that, whako's are reproducing like the bunnies Brits been thinning out.

 

[ppg1949]

Hi Brit, what about a wax slug. Lead shot held together by wax. It may be difficult to make for a ML but it could be done.
And everyone on this side of the Atlantic thought we invented the "Catch 22".

 

[Brokennock]

Hi Brit, what about a wax slug. Lead shot held together by wax. It may be difficult to make for a ML but it could be done.
And everyone on this side of the Atlantic thought we invented the "Catch 22".

Sounds like a "candle load."