Good And Bad News Regarding My Groups

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Good news is that it's not the rifle, or my equipment.

The first group was the bottom group, shot with 50gns FFg and a PRB. The second (top) one had the same powder charge, but had a cotton ball on top of the powder as a wad.

Bad news is that it's definitely me. I don't know if I actually saw the middle of the target, or if it was wishful thinking. Regardless, I got so used to shooting a 'scoped .22 rifle and peep sights etc, I just don't have enough trigger time behind open sights any longer.

Thinking about buying up a cheap .22, Marlin 60 maybe, where I can just concentrate on the basics again, not have to worry about reloading.

Or maybe I'll get a bunch of Shokey's Gold. I know it's manure but cleanup isn't so involved. Folks have also started shooting BH209 from their sidelocks using some mods I suggested, and they're getting awesome results. I guess maybe I should try the mods myself, eh?

Main thing is that the prone positions are different. When I get on the 'scoped target rifle, I spread my legs and go for max stability. Shooting the BP rifle, I tend to bring one leg up and leave the other straight, classic marksman's prone.

I use a log as a rest. No rear rest. I've always viewed that as cheating.

I'd fire, and when the smoke cleared, my rifle would be off the target more often than not. I'm OK with the front sight rising, but definitely not with being off to the left or right. My natural point of aim needs work, too.

So, in short, I've started to totally suck.

Josh

 

[BrownBear]

Thinking about buying up a cheap .22, Marlin 60 maybe, where I can just concentrate on the basics again, not have to worry about reloading.

I'd sure recommend a cheap pellet gun over a rimfire 22, long as the barrel is rifled. Lots of us in my neck of the woods use the pellet rifles specifically because they have a long "dwell time," or time between the pulling of the trigger and exit of the pellet from the barrel.

That'll teach you old lessons about followthrough, which is at the heart of accurate muzzleloader shooting. It takes a comparatively long time between break of the trigger and exit of the ball, and in fact pellet guns are very similar as far as I can tell.

Best of all, you can shoot the pellet gun in the house, garage or back yard, so you shoot it lots more. Shoot 20 aimed offhand pellets a night for a week, and watch your performance improve with a muzzleloader.

Just don't make any side bets with your kids! I was betting my daughter the dishwashing chores each night, and I came down with the worstest case of dishpan hands you ever saw! :rotf:

 

[matt denison]

waa waa waa, quit crying

Your target looks like two 3" groups at 50 yards. Not so bad. One group is 1" high, the other is 1" low. So what. You can't expect a miracle after only 6-7 shots. Get out there and shoot more. Once you get used to the gun and when the trigger is going to break and exactly how to hold your sights you can shrink your groups to the point that it gets boring.

Shooting a .22 or pellet gun or aiming and pulling the triggger on any gun will help you sharpen your shooting abillity. I once spent a whole winter shooting plastic drink cups in the basement with a Co2 pellet pistol. I'd shoot 10 or 15 times a night and my pistol scores improved dramatically. I carried this forth using a Colt SAA during nice weather unloading it 3 times EVERY DAY after work whether I felt like it or not. (went through a Heck of a lot of ammo too) That gun became a part of my hand and I could shoot it very well after a coupla months. There is no substitue for practice. :surrender:

 

[ebiggs1]

I am going to advise you shooting a modern gun isn't going to help your black powder shooting. Especially true with flintlocks. I was a horrible open sight center fire shooter. I have successfully moved into being just a poor open sight shooter since I started with flintlocks. Seriously a muzzleloader will teach you to shoot well with open sights. It just takes practice. I am amazed with what I can hit with my flintlock and how accurate they actually are.

 

[Bill Hall]

Sounds like you're having small issues with the changes from your other shooting styles. I emphasize "small", don't make them bigger than they are. I think a big part of accuracy is a mental game, that can work for, or against us.

Here's a suggestion, cut your range distance in half for a while. 25 yards. It's easier to see your sight picture against the target, you'll get better groups, your confidence will go up, and it's easier to make conscious sighting corrections from group to group. Keep an open mind, don't start telling yourself "This is not how I did it in the past". If you see your groups getting smaller and smaller at that range, go back up to 50 yards, and and you will be armed with some new mental tools to focus on for sight picture and trigger control. Works for me when I my groups go down the toilet. Try it. Bill

 

[Josh Smith]

Thanks folks.

Guess it's time to really get on it. Hate cleaning the rifle afterward, but heck, it only cost $60.

And I had to tumble a 'coon with it the other night because my dog mortally wounded it, so I guess I should get used to thorough cleanings after even one shot.

The biggest thing is getting lead. I trade for it and I can buy as much Linotype as I want, but not many people have pure lead any longer. I used to work in automotive and have never seen stick on wheel weights around here. OK, one.

The balls I'm shooting right now are running anywhere from 60:1 to 40:1.

Thanks,

Josh

P.S. During Appleseed, I was plunking them into one hole at 25yds with a .22. I almost got smacked by one of the R.O.s because I complained about a couple fliers I had. I'm just a perfectionist like that. Please do forgive me. I've not been able to change. J.S.

 

[Leatherbark]

If you dont feel like cleaning today wait until tomorrow. The humidity is down at this time of year.......Cleaning is part of the black powder experience. One has to accept it. As to shooting alot. I've burnt 6 pounds of black this year and that is still under 500 shots at targets. Some of these fellows here shoot alot more powder and lead than me.

Shooting open sights is easy if you only concentrate on the front sight and the target after settling it in the rear notch........Before you know it you'll be shooting offhand groups like the ones in your picture from a rest...............Good luck..........Bob

 

[luieb45]

"I use a log as a rest. No rear rest. I've always viewed that as cheating."

:rotf: The guys at my muzzleloader club think that using any type of rest besides off hand shooting they consider that cheating. :haha:

 

[GP1951]

Ok, now I'm confused. Is this thread about a mediocre shooting day or is it about how you do not like to clean a ML after shooting? :idunno:

There are numerous variables that might be in play on the shooting. What size ball and patch are you using? Lube? How much have you experimented with different loads. 50 grains ffg might be good for your CVA or it might not. What do your patches look like? What was the purpose behind the cottonball wad? How many shots did you fire on this outing? 3 shot groups do not always give a good representation. And the list goes on and on.

On the cleaning issue, how and what are you doing. Most of us who shoot BP accept and even embrace the cleaing ritual that comes with the hobby. I shot about 50 shots today and then came home and filled a bucket with warm water and soap. Removed the nipple and popped the barrel into the water to soak a few minutes while I cleaned the nipple and removed the lock. I swabbed the barrel about 10 times pulling water up the barrel and pushing it out the nipple hole on the down stroke. Then I put a .38 cal. brush on the rod and cleaned the chamber. Dried barrel and chamber with a few shots of alcohol. Dry patched and lubed. Cleaned and lubed the lock and reinstalled. Waxed the stock. Reinstalled barrel. Took about 15 minutes, I guess, but I was not watching the clock.

BTW, when you are working up a load and want to judge the performance of the gun and the load, using a back rest is not exactly cheating.

Good luck with your shooting.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

It's about my poor showing.

I've not been behind open iron sights for years - peep sights and 'scopes have been it.

I was afraid it was my hardware, but it's me. When the rifle recoils to the side, I know I've done thrown a ball to whichever side it recoils to. Same with bullets.

Not really complaining about cleaning. Just pointing out the fact that I could get more trigger time in with a BB gun that I didn't have to clean.

I do rather enjoy cleaning the BP rifle, and I do it thus:

1. Fill the sink with hot water, right below boiling.

2. Pull the barrel and put the breech end into the hot water. I don't bother removing the nipple every time. It gets cleaner like this.

3. I wrap a long patch around a brush (so that no bristles are in play) or around a swab.

4. I pump the water in and out of the barrel via the nipple.

5. I remove the drum screw. Goto 4.

6. I soap up a wet swab wrapped in the same manner as step 3.

7. I run that through the barrel a few times.

8. Rinse using the swab method.

9. The barrel comes out of the water (which is now black) and dry patches are run through. I look for any more fouling; if there is some, I repeat the above process.

10. After swabbing the barrel dry, I put a bit of lanolin on a patch and run it down the barrel and let it sit to season while I clean the lock etc.

11. Reassemble the rifle, and run a final dry patch down the bore.

12. Load, leaving the cap off the nipple.

(It's already been the closest at hand once when I needed a firearm).

The patches look good. Thick weave .010" to .015", as recommended by T/C, the maker of my mould. No burn marks; except for a bit of fouling where it contacted they lands and grooves, these could be new. Bullets are supposed to cast at .490", but actually cast at .493", due to my alloy (having trouble finding pure lead here) and probably my casting technique.

I just have bad eyesight and refuse glasses. Always adapted before.

Thanks,

Josh

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I don't think your groups are bad at all. Certainly for hunting they will fill your freezer.

Have you tried setting your sights for a 6 o'clock hold. I'm much more accurate that way. I find it easier to center the sight and get the height accurate. Especially when the distance is greater and the front sight is covering the whole bull.


Please Please Please don't use BH 209. It's not black powder. That's why it doesn't foul the barrel.

If you're going to shoot BP guns. Commit to that style and deal with all that goes with it. Lots of cleaning.

Otherwise you might as well get a centerfire.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Most factory open rear sights have notches that are TOO NARROW for older eyes to see through and focus on the front sight. You will do better if you use a jeweler's file to widen that notch.( It also helps young eyes).

I prefer a width that leaves as much DAYLIGHT on both sides of the front sight, as the front sight APPEARS to be wide when viewed holding the gunstock to your face and chest/upper arm, normally.The small notches( and small peep sights ) work well only on the brightest, sunny days. If you have intermittent cloud coverage, or over cast skies-typical of early mornings and late afternoons during hunting season-- those small notches and peeps are next to impossible to use well. If you are into power tools, you can carefully use a dremel tool and sanding disc to widen the notch.

Take your time, and mark the new width carefully on the sight before you begin. Put a center line in the middle of the existing sight to act as a CHECK to use to make sure the notch is widened equally on both sides of that center line.

If you can shoot a peep sight, or a Scope sight well, then the wider notch will help you shoot open sights as well. You LOOK THROUGH the rear sight notch, not at it. You focus on the Front sight, not the rear, or the target. You will find that the rear sight notch is less " fuzzy" when you widen it as described.

Oh, some shooters- particularly those originally trained to shoot shotguns at flying targets, focus on the target and not the front sight. If that works for you, go ahead and do it.

I was trained, for instance, in a combat handgun shooting technique where the gun is held at shoulder level, in both hands, turret style, with the eyes looking over the top of the gun at the target. The gun in your hand appears in your lower peripheral vision, only, and you don't use the sights other than an alignment check of your body with the target.

It was an accurate enough technique to put rounds on a attacker FAST, and you didn't have sight "movement" in recoil affecting the brains desire to have you "flinch". "Point shooting" using that style put groups on target out to 20 yds., almost as small as if I were doing rapid fire looking thru the sights.

Just give yourself a break. Most younger shooters today grew up with rifles that had scopes on them. No one wanted to buy, much less shoot a rifle that didn't have a scope sight. So, you didn't get much practice using open sights.

I am old enough that the first year I owned my .22 rifle, I fired it with iron sights only. I saved up money over the next year, and bought a scope mount and scope to put on the gun. But, before and during that rifle training, I was shooting revolvers with open sights, and we shot at targets at the longest ranges the "range" allowed with those .22s. You need either water, or very dry dirt(clay) to see where the bullets impact, but under such conditions, you can learn " Kentucky windage" quickly to hold up the right amount of that front sight to put the bullets on target.

 

[GP1951]

Ok, you are 100% certain that the problem is you and that you have ruled out all other variables. Let's assume that the CVA Bobcat that you have is a tack-driver and that it will shoot a PRB that you load into the same hole everytime it is shot, except for your inadequacies. I doubt all of that, but let's focus on you.

Get some glasses!

Put the gun on the rest exactly at the same spot every time. File or adjust your sights so that a hold at 6:00 on a legitimate 50 yard target hits at exactly the same spot every time. Don't anticipate the shot and put your finger in the exact same position every time on the trigger. Then take a breath and release the exact amount of air every time as you squeeze the trigger exactly the same way every time. Since you are not using a back rest and you are shooting from a prone position over a log, you need to get your body into the exact same position every time you shoot a ball.

Do all of that exactly(and a lot of other stuff that I do not even know about) any you should have just one hole exactly .50 in diameter for any number of shots you take.

I am not being sarcastic. The path of the BP shooter with open sights may be long and hard. What you did or did not do shooting a rim-fire or centerfired rifle does not necessarily translate directly to shooting open sight muzzleloaders. Of course, it might and I may not know what I am writing about.

Be patient--lots of good shooting ahead. :thumbsup:

 

[contenderfan]

Sounds like you just need to do some more playing around with your variables, the 50 gr. load your shooting may noy be what your rifle likes. Having said that...thos groups at 50 yards are not really that bad, you may suffer from the same affliction that I do, in particular being used to shooting scoped rifles and having tiny tiny groups...then you look at the 3" groups your getting now and you think its unacceptable.
If your searching for the ultimate in accuracy with a roundball gun you need to look into Dutch Schoultzs' shooting system. I believe quite a few on here use it as well and its worth its weight in gold in my opinion. Finding the ultimate load combo for your particular rifle will just take a little work is all.
If I were you I would start by bumping your powder charge up to 60 gr and shoot 5 shots, then try 70 gr and shoot 5 shots, then go to 80 gr and shoot 5....this should give you a better idea of what your rifle likes as far as powder charge.
If you see no noticeable difference try a little thicker patching, maybe .018 pillow ticking to start. And deffinately find some pure lead balls...if your casting and adding a hardening alloy your balls may be too hard.
When it all comes together you could wind up with a rifle capable of shooting groups like this. 5 shots @ 50 yards .50 cal T/C Hawken, 80 gr fff Goex, .490 RB, .021 pillow ticking, using Dutch's "Dry Lube System"

 

[R.M.]

You need to remember that it's a Bobcat. Short barrel, and shallow rifling. It's not a bench gun. Work with it. It'll get better if you do your part.

 

[Josh Smith]

Most factory open rear sights have notches that are TOO NARROW for older eyes to see through and focus on the front sight. You will do better if you use a jeweler's file to widen that notch.( It also helps young eyes).

Can't believe I didn't translate this from combat handgunning to here. While I prefer GI sights, I'm finding them to be a bit narrow these days and so I do open them up a bit.

prefer a width that leaves as much DAYLIGHT on both sides of the front sight, as the front sight APPEARS to be wide when viewed holding the gunstock to your face and chest/upper arm, normally.The small notches( and small peep sights ) work well only on the brightest, sunny days. If you have intermittent cloud coverage, or over cast skies-typical of early mornings and late afternoons during hunting season-- those small notches and peeps are next to impossible to use well. If you are into power tools, you can carefully use a dremel tool and sanding disc to widen the notch.

I used my "gunsmith" file set to open it up and relieve the front to cut glare and funnel light just now. (What makes them a gunsmith file set as opposed to a regular small file set is beyond me). It's now sitting in some bluing solution and we'll see what it does tomorrow. Decided to keep the notch; I usually make a U shape just because it's easier, but a square notch seemed more appropriate.

I was trained, for instance, in a combat handgun shooting technique where the gun is held at shoulder level, in both hands, turret style, with the eyes looking over the top of the gun at the target. The gun in your hand appears in your lower peripheral vision, only, and you don't use the sights other than an alignment check of your body with the target.

I was trained similarly. Bad breath distance, smack, draw and shoot from hip, create distance while bringing pistol up to two had modified iso or Weaver, index sights at this point out to about seven yards, transition to full sight picture after that keeping NPOA with upper body. Are we on the same page Sir?

I am old enough that the first year I owned my .22 rifle, I fired it with iron sights only. I saved up money over the next year, and bought a scope mount and scope to put on the gun. But, before and during that rifle training, I was shooting revolvers with open sights, and we shot at targets at the longest ranges the "range" allowed with those .22s. You need either water, or very dry dirt(clay) to see where the bullets impact, but under such conditions, you can learn " Kentucky windage" quickly to hold up the right amount of that front sight to put the bullets on target.

My friend and I used to do this with .22 rifles and a cornfield behind my childhood home after the harvest.

To this day I can still hit better with a handgun than a rifle inside 25yds or so, just because I never really practiced at short range with a rifle.

Been doing a lot of standing dry-firing with an empty .22 case over the nipple to protect it. Hopefully I improve using this technique.

Thanks!

Josh

 

[Josh Smith]

Having said that...thos groups at 50 yards are not really that bad, you may suffer from the same affliction that I do, in particular being used to shooting scoped rifles and having tiny tiny groups...then you look at the 3" groups your getting now and you think its unacceptable.

That's it - that's it exactly.

We'll see how the modified sights do later today.

Thanks!

Josh

 

[Josh Smith]

This is one reason I'm frustrated with myself:

That's one of the very first targets I fired with this rifle, using Shockey's Gold from a sitting position, no less.

Something changed and I'm trying to figure out what it was.

Josh

 

[bucktales]

1. Fill the sink with hot water, right below boiling.

2 lb plastic coffee can works for me.

As far as sighting in goes, I prefer a good set of front and rear bags on a bench. A non-awkward shooting position is a must.

Once you have acceptable groups and you are satisfied, then you can practice your offhand shooting. :v

 

[contenderfan]

Something changed and I'm trying to figure out what it was.

Your in the right frame of mind Josh, try to work through what was different from your first groups to the ones your shooting now...

Powder type/granulation.
Patch thickness.
Patch lube, using different/more/less.
Bore condition. (were you wiping the bore between shots? if so, how much/little/often.)
Using the same jag to wipe with? Believe it or not this can make a difference, a smaller jag can leave more fouling behind, a larger one will take more out. Some rifles shoot better with more fouling, some with less. This is a variable that most will never notice, especially if a 3" hunting group is all thats expected, but put a "one hole" nut behind the trigger like us and it can make a difference of night and day.
I usually dont take it this far anymore, as my "over 40 trifocal wearing eyes" just cant keep up with my desire to shoot 3/4" groups with open sights anymore. When I get a rifle down to shooting 1 1/2-2" groups at 50 yards I am happy with it, I just have to accept the fact that I flat out cant see like I did several years ago. Its been tought to accept but Im dealing with it better now...a little. :wink: