Good deer hunting load

[chorizo]

Proof is in the blood pudding.

Ranges/distances with those shots, if you please, Frontier's

Nice shooting and very nice animals. Well done.

 

[64Springer]

A good deer hunting load:

.490 round ball, .020" patch, 70gr 3fg goex.

Ent Hole


Exit hole


Ent hole

Exit hole


80gr 2fg, .490 round ball, .020" patch

Ent/Exit holes


.530" round ball, 80gr 2fg



Just a few examples I can offer.

I love it when people put up the proof.

Pictures don't lie.

 

[johnraleksa]

I think that s

Hey John, I like your testing. One thing I have found after testing a lot of different types of bullets is that it is best for game approximation to always have some of your wet/flesh material in front of any hard medium. All on game strikes [except when you hit a tree 1st] hit some amount of fluid filled flesh 1st, which initiates expansion in ways that hard media [wood etc] do not. I have seen bullets that hit ply or 2x 1st not open up much at all, and then penetrate farther into wet media than if they hit the wet media 1st which forces them to expand more. Wood grain deforms projectiles in ways that flesh does not. Water [in tissue] is a violent expander of bullets. Pure water, like in all the cool YouTube vids w gallon jugs, is not much help in gauging on game performance either. It is too violent. Fun, but some folks dismiss any bullet that they think fails their 'jug test' when in reality, flesh is far different than pure h2o. It is between water and solids in composition. I like to place 2-3 wet phone books in front of half inch ply, then maybe 4-5 more followed by another pc of ply backed by enough wet book to recover the bullet. This is a reasonable simulation of a deer shoulder shot. [That is why I suggested about 20" of medium to recover the bullet.]. Same w quarter inch ply could represent deer rib/body shots. Wet is the key and dry media don't tell the correct story. Place your books, newspapers etc. in a 5 gallon bucket and completely saturate them. Soak your ply too. I know that this is not perfect flesh/blood/bone comparison but it is very close. I haven't tried this yet but I want to test jugs filled w cheap, store bought jello mixed w fine sawdust as a medium. The ballistic gelatin used by the 'pros' is really less useful than what you are already doing. Too little h2o [if any]. Happy testing. SW

Some people don't have any ideal of the power of black powder. If it can easley go through plywood, phonebooks, ect it will kill .

 

[Steve Wagner]

A good deer hunting load:

.490 round ball, .020" patch, 70gr 3fg goex.

Ent Hole


Exit hole


Ent hole

Exit hole


80gr 2fg, .490 round ball, .020" patch

Ent/Exit holes


.530" round ball, 80gr 2fg



Just a few examples I can offer.

I think you are posting on the wrong thread. Looks like you want the one titled, "Sometimes I Even Amaze Myself- The Incredible Exploits of Frontier's". We all have hunting photos. You have no clue as to whether or not his desired load of 50 grains would have exited the same animals at the distances he has asked about. Your hunting photos don't prove "squat" and do nothing to help the OP who is asking about the sufficiency of a load for 50-75 yards and ways he can determine that. That is what the more civil and serious posters here have been trying to do for him on this thread. Maybe less noising out of your exit hole and more thoughtful consideration would help to keep you on topic instead of detracting from others to pet your own ego. This habit of your is becoming a vice. SW

 

[ETipp]

I love it when people put up the proof.

Pictures don't lie.

Like an old friend use to say............"You can't argue with success".

 

[ETipp]

I'm hitting bullseye at 50 yards in the load mentioned

Sent you a PM.

 

[kyron4]

I think you are posting on the wrong thread. Looks like you want the one titled, "Sometimes I Even Amaze Myself- The Incredible Exploits of Frontier's". We all have hunting photos. You have no clue as to whether or not his desired load of 50 grains would have exited the same animals at the distances he has asked about. Your hunting photos don't prove "squat" and do nothing to help the OP who is asking about the sufficiency of a load for 50-75 yards and ways he can determine that. That is what the more civil and serious posters here have been trying to do for him on this thread. Maybe less noising out of your exit hole and more thoughtful consideration would help to keep you on topic instead of detracting from others to pet your own ego. This habit of your is becoming a vice. SW

I thought the pictures and load info. was informative and on topic.

Some friendly advice to someone who has been here just over a month, maybe dial it back a bit we can all agree to disagree in a more adult fashion . Carry on.

 

[Frontier's]

 

[rafterob]

I have 2 different .50 cal rifles. A CVA Mountain Rifle and a Traditions Hawkin. The Traditions likes 70 ff and the CVA likes 65 ff for best accuracy. The Traditions is also accurate with 90 grains but I see no point in that higher load.

 

[Steve Wagner]

I thought the pictures and load info. was informative and on topic.

Some friendly advice to someone who has been here just over a month, maybe dial it back a bit we can all agree to disagree in a more adult fashion . Carry on.

Good advice to send him in a pm. I don't care how long anyone is a member here if their typical m..o. is smug, arrogant, self-promoting sarcasm that is aimed at stifling legitimate discussion and tends to drive away people who would like to have a charitable, respectful dialogue. Those are the people I like to learn from and exchange ideas with. They are the people who attracted me to this forum in the 1st place. Please go back and read how this evolved before removing the speck from my eye for me. And, note that this is not the 1st time he has posted his detracting, self-inflating snark when others are trading ideas and advice w mutual respect. If you want to check my posting history [again ?], it should be obvious that I have not once initiated any post w a snide, dogmatic one liner [or other similar tripe] intended to show up any poster. Not my style. But, when I joined the forum, no one informed me that members were required to be a doormat until they passed some magic approval bar. I honestly don't care that much, but this behavior, which I have seen on too many forums/threads, has the effect of intimidating some decent people that often have something useful to say. And, because of that, we all lose out. My friendly advice would be for him to ignore my civil exchanges with other members and simply offer his own take on what might be relevant to any particular thread that interests him. I will be more than happy to do the same for him. Maybe, as an ambassador for the forum, you can convey that to him. I am glad you found his last post useful. I did not, but would never have bothered with it if it weren't a smug dismissal [appeal to his own authority as final] of ideas made by other members. Others posted much the same content without being insulting and I respect that. Could work for him too. SW

 

[Bushfire]

How about everyone pumps the brakes before an informative thread gets locked.

 

[ETipp]

@Loyalist Dave said "So in summation shoot what's accurate with enough impact velocity to get the ball to do the max damage."

And I would add: "at the max distance you intend to shoot"

Absolutely correct.

As long as the projectile is put in the boiler room, it will be a dead critter. Whether it is hugely expanded or only partially expanded. Whether it exits or remains in the critter. If it is put in the vitals, the critter will die. Sometimes quicker than others, but its still a dead critter IF the vitals are hit. The last elk I killed was with a .50 cal hand made *hard cast* Maxi Ball. The shot was every bit of 150 yards. Just like all the other critters I have killed using .50 Maxis, the projectile did not expand. I found that projectile in the hide on the offside. I still have that Maxi Ball. With just about all the other critters I have killed using them, it was a .50 caliber hole entrance and a .50 cal hole on the exit. None, not one, has went farther than perhaps 30 yards with the most of them falling within 3 to 15 yards.

On the other end of the spectrum, even if a projectile over-expands, as long as sufficient penetration is in the vitals, it's a dead critter. Plain and simple. Yes we all want an exit hole, especially on elk, but sometimes it just doesn't happen, not even on deer.

With that said, I personally want the most powerful load I can put through a ML but it must be accurate at the distance I plan on shooting. Sooner or later a not so great shot placement will happen, not IF but when. Its beyond comprehension why anyone would want to limit themselves when such an event occurs.

 

[Ditt44]

To add thoughts on the target animal... Size. Even in whitetails, matters. Angle matters. State of the animal matters. Just a few of the factors.

The button buck I shot this year, slight quartering away, was rib-rib-upper leg bone all shattered, no exit at 25 yards. Had that been a mature doe, ball path being equal I would guess rib-rib-and stop. Same on a mature buck. I doubt any of the three, shot at that angle would have had an exit and the larger rib bones and extra flesh/meat/fat probably do not give that ball remaining energy to break an upper leg bone. Swap for Maxi Ball or Hunter and I would expect all three would exit based on bullet mass alone. My muzzle velocity is roughly 1560.

Now take that same shot at a square 90 degrees, maybe it is rib-rib-exit, and I would be 'yes' on all three. Swap out for Maxi Ball or Hunter and definitely exit all three. The size and weight of the deer and the angle of and location of the hit are all going to be factors. The bare minimum factor is 'boiler room'. If you can get a double lung shot on any deer with any weapon capable of puncturing both lungs, that is a dead deer.

I shot a nice heavy 8-point one year with my linear ignition ML at about 40 yards. That jacketed projectile going roughly 1800 FPS passed neatly between two ribs going in and going out. Popped both lungs. Never hit a bone and left two perfectly sized .50 holes. Had it hit one rib coming or going, that would have been a golf ball sized hole or more. He ran a good 40 yards and smacked into a huge oak tree before falling. I'd bet a round ball doing 1500 FPS would have done the same but who can intentionally shoot between ribs over open sights at 40 yards and be that lucky on purpose?

We all want an exit hole if at all possible but we also know that just does not happen every time. Far too many factors. Not every deer reacts the same way to the exact same weapon/projectile or conditions. Best location with the best accuracy and most energy you can deliver. A 100 grain load that is a six inch group is not interesting or smart, in my opinion, versus a clover leaf and 60 grains at the same distance. Practice within your comfort zone of distance...my eyes say 70 yards for me so that's what I do. I load and practice for 75 but I do not want to take a shot that is not as ideal as possible. I owe a deer that much.

 

[ETipp]

To add thoughts on the target animal... Size. Even in whitetails, matters. Angle matters. State of the animal matters. Just a few of the factors.

The button buck I shot this year, slight quartering away, was rib-rib-upper leg bone all shattered, no exit at 25 yards. Had that been a mature doe, ball path being equal I would guess rib-rib-and stop. Same on a mature buck. I doubt any of the three, shot at that angle would have had an exit and the larger rib bones and extra flesh/meat/fat probably do not give that ball remaining energy to break an upper leg bone. Swap for Maxi Ball or Hunter and I would expect all three would exit based on bullet mass alone. My muzzle velocity is roughly 1560.

Now take that same shot at a square 90 degrees, maybe it is rib-rib-exit, and I would be 'yes' on all three. Swap out for Maxi Ball or Hunter and definitely exit all three. The size and weight of the deer and the angle of and location of the hit are all going to be factors. The bare minimum factor is 'boiler room'. If you can get a double lung shot on any deer with any weapon capable of puncturing both lungs, that is a dead deer.

I shot a nice heavy 8-point one year with my linear ignition ML at about 40 yards. That jacketed projectile going roughly 1800 FPS passed neatly between two ribs going in and going out. Popped both lungs. Never hit a bone and left two perfectly sized .50 holes. Had it hit one rib coming or going, that would have been a golf ball sized hole or more. He ran a good 40 yards and smacked into a huge oak tree before falling. I'd bet a round ball doing 1500 FPS would have done the same but who can intentionally shoot between ribs over open sights at 40 yards and be that lucky on purpose?

We all want an exit hole if at all possible but we also know that just does not happen every time. Far too many factors. Not every deer reacts the same way to the exact same weapon/projectile or conditions. Best location with the best accuracy and most energy you can deliver. A 100 grain load that is a six inch group is not interesting or smart, in my opinion, versus a clover leaf and 60 grains at the same distance. Practice within your comfort zone of distance...my eyes say 70 yards for me so that's what I do. I load and practice for 75 but I do not want to take a shot that is not as ideal as possible. I owe a deer that much.

Well stated. Definitely more factors to take into consideration. I was going to add some of what you posted but decided against it. I was hoping someone would. Position of the critter can and often does make a difference. Few realize this more so than a well seasoned bow hunter.

In term of the vitals, put a bullet in there and its dead. May not be as quickly as one wants, and the critter might travel a little further, but they are dead. The bullet does not have to exit to do that.

While we are on the subject of this, I would like to bring attention to something I have researched quite a bit in the last few months. I have noticed that many critters, mostly deer, that were shot with unmentionables ML shooting unmentionable ML projectiles, still traveled a fair distance even after a pass through and from a faster and somewhat heavy projectile. Many went 100 yards or more. Yet the slower and nonexpanding Maxis I have killed critters with has always put them down quickly with very little traveling of the critters. Yes, even elk.

I had a very good reason for doing so much research on this but in the sake of not wanting to thread crap, nor cross the line too much on the rules, I'll leave that one be.

 

[Ditt44]

ETipp: I shot a doe with one of those 'things' two years ago. 90 yards, 250 grain pointed jacket... slight down and quarter to me angle. Dropped her on the spot. Took out both lungs and the rib that was hit going in broke her spine, which is why she dropped. Had that buck I mentioned missed that oak tree, he probably had another 50 yards in him. The bad part was the 30 foot near vertical gully he slid into after hitting that tree. It actually sounded like he got hit by a car. Anyway, more good points made.

 

[Frontier's]

Good advice to send him in a pm. I don't care how long anyone is a member here if their typical m..o. is smug, arrogant, self-promoting sarcasm that is aimed at stifling legitimate discussion and tends to drive away people who would like to have a charitable, respectful dialogue. Those are the people I like to learn from and exchange ideas with. They are the people who attracted me to this forum in the 1st place. Please go back and read how this evolved before removing the speck from my eye for me. And, note that this is not the 1st time he has posted his detracting, self-inflating snark when others are trading ideas and advice w mutual respect. If you want to check my posting history [again ?], it should be obvious that I have not once initiated any post w a snide, dogmatic one liner [or other similar tripe] intended to show up any poster. Not my style. But, when I joined the forum, no one informed me that members were required to be a doormat until they passed some magic approval bar. I honestly don't care that much, but this behavior, which I have seen on too many forums/threads, has the effect of intimidating some decent people that often have something useful to say. And, because of that, we all lose out. My friendly advice would be for him to ignore my civil exchanges with other members and simply offer his own take on what might be relevant to any particular thread that interests him. I will be more than happy to do the same for him. Maybe, as an ambassador for the forum, you can convey that to him. I am glad you found his last post useful. I did not, but would never have bothered with it if it weren't a smug dismissal [appeal to his own authority as final] of ideas made by other members. Others posted much the same content without being insulting and I respect that. Could work for him too. SW

All talk and no show.

 

[ETipp]

ETipp: I shot a doe with one of those 'things' two years ago. 90 yards, 250 grain pointed jacket... slight down and quarter to me angle. Dropped her on the spot. Took out both lungs and the rib that was hit going in broke her spine, which is why she dropped. Had that buck I mentioned missed that oak tree, he probably had another 50 yards in him. The bad part was the 30 foot near vertical gully he slid into after hitting that tree. It actually sounded like he got hit by a car. Anyway, more good points made.

Indeed. Some do fall fast like. But others do not. I was amazed when viewing hunting videos of such as you described above. Some had fairly good size exit holes. Yet the critters still traveled 100 yards or more. Considering those were with the newest wiz bang fad ML, as well as projectiles, I was less than impressed. This ole boy will be sticking with my old side locks, as well as the projectiles that they shoot well.

 

[Steve Wagner]

How about everyone pumps the brakes before an informative thread gets locked.

I completely agree Bushfire and had already planned to let this go. If you read my last post you will note that I said I am happy to ignore him and am hopeful that he can reciprocate to all who can do w out his 'critiques'. I think his last post pretty much spells out what I am talking about. Thanks SW

 

[Frontier's]

I gave real life research, not key board warrior research like you.

50 to 100 yards, 70fg does awesome from my real world testing/research

 

[hanshi]

I've killed deer that were running, trotting and standing at about every angle. It never mattered to me if the ball stayed inside or exited. But I liked having to retrieve the flattened ball normally resting under the off-side skin. I lost a few while field dressing deer but did maintain a hand full of spent ball. I've always used patched ball for several reasons not the least of which was to see the effect of-and-on the ball at various distances.

This is a mix .45 and .50 caliber balls recovered from several deer. Looking at the photo I can't swear which is which. But "I think" two .50s are on the ends and the .45s in the middle.