GPR flintlock Historical?

[Walkabout]

The Lyman Great Plains rifle is supposed to resemble a Hawken. But we're Hawkens ever made in with a flintlock ignition? Thanks

 

[andy52]

Most folks say no if it's half stock and yes in full stock, but there could have been a one-off no knows for certain.

 

[William Sublette]

Prayers sent

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Walkabout

Your question is a good one, and it has been discussed before. The topic of flintlock halfstock Hawkens comes up 2-3 times a year, and with a search of the Forum, you can probably find what you need to know. For starters, here is a link to an epic, 9-page, 179-post discussion of this very topic: Halfstock, Flintlock Hawkens?

Briefly, and respectfully, the answer to your question is "no." The flintlock Great Plains Rifle is a fantasy gun, a late 20th century marketing creation. I'm not saying they aren't nice rifles... They are! However, your question was about authenticity, and authentic they are not.

People want to believe. There are folks who believe a remnant population of the prehistoric dire wolf has survived and is living in Montana, and gave rise to the native legend of the shunka warak'in. They point to an abominable critter that was killed up there a few years ago as an example, although genetic testing showed it was an ordinary wolf, apparently deformed with birth defects.

There is no written record of a halfstock flintlock Hawken, and no known surviving example of a flintlock rifle from the Hawken shop that was built as a halfstock. There is no doubt that the Hawken brothers (or at least Jacob) built flintlocks, but there is no record and no surviving example of a Hawken flintlock originally constructed as a halfstock. There were absolutely halfstock flintlock rifles back in the day... Just not Hawkens. However, people want to believe, and modern gunmakers, both factory and custom, produce rifles that conform to the popular ideas of what a halfstock flintlock Hawken would look like. Most of these are more or less 1850's styled S. Hawken type rifles with a flint lock. A lot of these are really nice, well-built, functional rifles that win matches, adorn walls, kill game, and bring their owners a lot of pleasure. That's all good. My only problem with them is when they are presented as authentic reproductions of a traditional design, which they are not.

I think if you have, or are considering getting a flintlock GPR, you ought to shoot it and enjoy it. I understand they are very good rifles, accurate, sturdy, and dependable. It's just not a copy of anything that existed in the past.

If you'll open a beer or pour a cup of coffee and settle down and read that thread in the link, you'll find it pretty much covers what we know and think we know about the topic.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Mike in FL]

Not unlike the short starter issue. There are those who adamantly believe they didn't exist or were not in use, and they base their "fact" on a starter never having been found among rifle possibles. To no avail I've argued that what was not found doesn't prove they were never used. A flintlock halfstock plains rifle may have very well existed.
A bigger concern for the Lyman GPR is that they are not that close to accurately depicting a Hawken. Hawkins were much thicker and heavier, at least one inch across the barrel flats. They weighed as much as 15 pounds.
I am anxious to see Kibler's new offering of the Hawken, whether or not they are true to their real era.

 

[necchi]

The Lyman Great Plains rifle is supposed to resemble a Hawken.

Who said that?
Your question(s) can't be truly answered when asked under false premise.(period)

Aren't these kind of topics best used in late winter/early spring?
I mean cabin fever ain't near set in yet??

 

[necchi]

To no avail I've argued that what was not found doesn't prove they were never used.

lol, and we all have too some point.
Fact remains, nobody can prove a false positive.
Written and studied Roman history pre-dates American history, right(?) But in all these years nobody has been able to prove or disprove that first Americans wore roman sandals.

 

[EndoftheLine]

lol, and we all have too some point.
Fact remains, nobody can prove a false positive.
Written and studied Roman history pre-dates American history, right(?) But in all these years nobody has been able to prove or disprove that first Americans wore roman sandals.

. . . And no one can prove, through archeological evidence, that Romans didn’t use laptops. It is reasonable, however, to use analysis of available artifacts along with logic to prove that (subject to new evidence) Romans did not use laptops, smartphones or even pagers.

 

[Mike in FL]

Good points. Like most unproven scenarios, I reckon we believe what we want. If we can't see it, it must not exist. Some folks, actually most people (their souls,) are destined to burn. They didn't/don't believe that, so the probability, indeed the possibility, doesn't exist. The sandals/laptop stance is a silly persuasion tactic to prove a point. Short starters would have been wooden, maybe even just a stick, but wood they were, I think, and easily made. I think either they were used or that lead balls were undersized, maybe without patches. Can we say that ALL surviving rifles from the 17/18th centuries were coned? No, just like we can't say Davy Crockett never ate lie. Again, lack of discovered evidence is not proof.

 

[tenngun]

This is an iffy subject, and goes to the heart of our hobby.
If someone walked in to Hawken shop and plopped solid coin on the counter and asked for a flintlock Jake or Sam would have said very good sir, order will be ready in a month, and as always thank you for your business.
People didn’t worry about historic principles then. While flintlock guns would be continued to be made caps replaced them in short order. While a flintlock in 1830 was not unknown they wernt built then.
To look for a flintlock Hawken plains gun would be like looking for a muzzle loading Winchester, or a cap and ball ‘73 peace maker.
I want there to be a flint half stock Hawken, but if you could afford such a fine gun you wanted it up to date
Shockingly for this ol greybeard to believe, there were people who converted real guns in to cap locks
I know it’s hard to believe, but to this day I have never heard of an historic cap lock being converted to flint
When capguns came out nobody wanted an old gun

 

[Mike in FL]

This is an iffy subject, and goes to the heart of our hobby.
If someone walked in to Hawken shop and plopped solid coin on the counter and asked for a flintlock Jake or Sam would have said very good sir, order will be ready in a month, and as always thank you for your business.
People didn’t worry about historic principles then. While flintlock guns would be continued to be made caps replaced them in short order. While a flintlock in 1830 was not unknown they wernt built then.
To look for a flintlock Hawken plains gun would be like looking for a muzzle loading Winchester, or a cap and ball ‘73 peace maker.
I want there to be a flint half stock Hawken, but if you could afford such a fine gun you wanted it up to date
Shockingly for this ol greybeard to believe, there were people who converted real guns in to cap locks
I know it’s hard to believe, but to this day I have never heard of an historic cap lock being converted to flint
When capguns came out nobody wanted an old gun

Correct, sir! They weren't "playing" at muzzleloading like we are.