GPR thimbles and hot bluing

[hardykev]

I was talking with a local shop that blues parts and we started discussing tank temperature, since the thimbles are soldered to the rib on these rifles.

The Lyman users guide states that most hot browning is 212-260 degrees and should present no problem if the person is careful. The person with whom I am working states that at this altitude, he finds that he needs to run his tank at 300 degrees.

Does anyone know if this will be too warm?

 

Kevin, best info I can give is to find out what type of solder is used by Lyman and what they recommend.
Or if you want, go to the following site:
http.//www.shorinternational.com/Solders.htm
Check out the temps there for the different solders.

 

[musketman]

You could always cold blue the thimbles and under-rib...

Hot blue for everything else...

Then thar'd be no doubt dat them thembees be a stayin'... (Well, what do you know, I can talk like 'ZONIE)

 

[tg]

I think browning would be a more fitting finish for a LGP and Laurel Mt Forge and some others make excellant user friendly cold process products for this process.

 

Why would one want to blue the most affordable, historically accurate, mass produced Hawken replica? They should be browned....I know, the factory blues them....but it ain't fittin'.....just ain't fittin'.

Vic

 

[Zonie]

Ah ain't sure what process he's a usin fer bluing at them temperatures. Jus showin my ignorance bout low temperature tank bluing ah guess so ah won't say he's wrong BUT iffen he's talkin bout tank heatin fer Browning AND he's a talkin 'bout usin that Plum Brown the recommend temperature are 260-290 (300s close enough).
In any case, all the solders ah'm familure with have a "solidus" temperature above 370 degrees F. That are when it starts turnin to mush. The liquidus temperature are above 400 degrees. (That are when it's a flowin like water).

As fer MooskeetMan a talkin like 'Zonie an I quote him har "Then thar'd be no doubt dat them thembees be a stayin'... (Well, what do you know, I can talk like 'ZONIE)" ah don't say "dat". That are Cajin type talk. The rite way ta say it is "Then thar'd be no doubt AT them thimbees be a stayin...".

 

[hardykev]

Were no Hawken type flintlock rifles blued in the 1800s?

One of my primary concerns is getting a durable finish, and I am positive that getting a good hot blue finish will fill that bill.

 

Kevin, not that I'm aware of. I don't believe bluing of barrels came along until the late 1800's but I am not certain of this. Someone out there knows and I'd be curious to know for certain also.

Regarding the toughness of browning I don't believe you'd be disappointed. Many thousands of arms with browned barrels are still among us and quite a number in remarkable condition.

Vic

 

[hardykev]

I am not suggesting that browning isn't tough, I would just like a finish that is tougher than a cold process I paint on. If there were someone here locally that did a browning, I would likely have it done.

In looking at the mountain man museum's virtual tour, some of the rifles sure look blued.

 

[tg]

There was a charcoal blueing that was done in the 18th century but I do not think that the type of blueing we now use was around in the 1840's, I have found that a good brown finish is more durable than any blued finish I have ever seen on a modern gun.

 

[musketman]

The low down on bluing:

Charcoal Blue:

Charcoal Blue is perhaps the most beautiful of all finishes but also is the most delicate and the most prone to changes in color from the passage of time.

This is a thermal process that involves heating the pieces over a charcoal fire on top of a sheet of mica.
A very old process. Due to the heat involved, any thermal treatment that was used in the manufacture of pieces being blued will be lost.

This finish is reserved for exact re-creations only due to the extreme difficulty in obtaining the proper color and the durability factors involved.


Nitre Blue:

A gorgeous finish very similar to a true Charcoal blue, but a good deal tougher due to the chemical action of the Nitre salts used in this process. While still not as durable as a hot salt blue, this finish is a very lustrous and breath taking blue indeed. Here again, due to the heat involved, there is damage to thermal treatment.


Hot Salt Blue:

This process is best know in the firearms industry. Most of the blued steel firearms made today use hot salt processes.

This involves 300 degree super-saturate solutions of sodium hydroxide and it is not without extreme hazards but the results are worth it.
The resulting finish is a very lustrous, deep, blue/black color that is very, very attractive and very durable.

 

[tg]

The "painted" on cold brown products will give a color from rust brown thru near blue/black depending on application and will be as durable as anything a gunsmith will produce in a hot tank. Original guns will vary in appearance due to age and usage and method and degree of color originaly given. I hunt in a very wet climate and find the finish does better than the blueing on the modern guns I used many years ago.

 

[LRB]

My rifle was browned with Laurel MT brown. It was done to a pretty heavy degree and even here in FL does not require constant attention such as a blued gun will. The cold slow brown forms an oxide surface coat that is bonded with the steel and makes it hard for new rust to get a bite, and if it does it is not noticed with an oil wipe down. I spent a week in GA hunting recently and never needed to wipe any part of the rifle and could find no rust after I got home. This type of brown is totally non-reflective and extremely durable and just looks right for a hunting muzzleloader.

 

[musketman]

You could do a controled RUSTING of the barrel...

Rust, steel wool, rust some more, steel wool some more...

Once you get a nice, even, pit free coating, seal it with oil...

Make rust work for you for a change...

 

In 1995 I was at the Cody museum in Cody, Wyoming and there were 11 original Hawkens on display. What blew my mind was that 10 of them were owned by one doctor, I believe, from California and on loan to the center. They were all browned. All the original Dimicks, Gemmers and Lemans I've ever seen were browned also, as were the trade guns at the museum in Chadron, Nebraska and the rifles at the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale, Wy. Not to say none were ever blued but if so I'd bet they weren't owned by the common man of the day.

Vic

 

[tg]

"You could do a controled RUSTING of the barrel..." er...umh.. ..yeah... that is a process we commonly call browning or blueing depending on how you do it....

 

[Zonie]

In Europe guns back in the 1600s were often blued and this was continued there up to the present.

IMO the guns made by individuals in America were browned because the process of letting something rust and carding (rubbing/using steel wool etc) off the loose surface rust and leaving the hard brown rust was easy to do without fancy equipment.
This browning was the main American finish (some were left "in the white") up until about 1840-1850. During that era small guns like pistols were being blued on both sides of the pond.
Just prior to the Civil War and thru it blueing became the "modern" look for all guns primarly due to the vast numbers of military arms produced then (which were all blued).
The Plains rifles were produced in the 1820-1850 time frame so most if not all of them were browned.

Aside from the obvious fact that browning is a matt or dull finish (good for hunting) it shows scratches less than blueing and is as hard if not harder to scratch as the best blueing available. It is not soft red rust with oil on it. It is that hard oxide that is "Dam near impossible to get off of the shovel" kind of rust the shovel got when your kids left it outside last winter.
If you have access to a gunsmith with a hot tank, introduce him to Birchwood Casey Plumb Brown. Warn him that it will take at least 2 and more likely 3 coats to get a good uniform look, and it looks better after it has set overnite and then had a coat of warm linseed oil rubbed into it.
Unlike blueing its apearance also improves with age