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Did they ever make a Trade Gun with a brass trigger guard? I have a trade gun with a Lott Lock and no makers mark anywhere that I can’t identify.
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Green River Forge NW trade gun
- Thread starter Lonesome Charley
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madsweeney
32 Cal
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I have a new-to-me GRF 50 cal trade rifle. It won't spark. At all. The frizzen looks blackened; I am assuming that someone tried to case harden the frizzen and managed to anneal it or something. Anyone know whether replacement frizzens are available?
Mine sez "made in italy" on the inside. It's a pretty (if currently non functioning) lock, so I don't want to replace it with a plain jane one.
I see that the picures on the previous page(s) show a flash hole liner. Mine rifle has just a drilled hole in the side of the barrel. Did they come both ways, or is that a user-installed upgrade/repair?
I have shot percussion guns most of my life but flinters are brand new to me, so any advice would be appreciated.
Mine sez "made in italy" on the inside. It's a pretty (if currently non functioning) lock, so I don't want to replace it with a plain jane one.
I see that the picures on the previous page(s) show a flash hole liner. Mine rifle has just a drilled hole in the side of the barrel. Did they come both ways, or is that a user-installed upgrade/repair?
I have shot percussion guns most of my life but flinters are brand new to me, so any advice would be appreciated.
madsweeney
32 Cal
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(apologies if this is a double post- computer puked halfway through sending so . . .)
I have shot percussion guns all my life but am an absolute noob when it comes to flintlocks. I have a GRF trade RIFLE that will not spark. At all. The lock is marked "made in Italy" inside. It's pretty (if nonfunctional) so I don't want to replace it with a plain jane lock from davis (assuming they ever build any more). Anyone know what kind of steel they are made from? I might try to case harden the frizzen. Are there any plug-and-play replacement frizzens available?
I noticed that on at least one photo in this thread that the gun had a flash hole liner. Mine just has a hole drilled in the barrel flat. Was the liner a owner add, or did some of them come that way originally?
I have shot percussion guns all my life but am an absolute noob when it comes to flintlocks. I have a GRF trade RIFLE that will not spark. At all. The lock is marked "made in Italy" inside. It's pretty (if nonfunctional) so I don't want to replace it with a plain jane lock from davis (assuming they ever build any more). Anyone know what kind of steel they are made from? I might try to case harden the frizzen. Are there any plug-and-play replacement frizzens available?
I noticed that on at least one photo in this thread that the gun had a flash hole liner. Mine just has a hole drilled in the barrel flat. Was the liner a owner add, or did some of them come that way originally?
plmeek
40 Cal.
cesweeney2107 and madsweeney,
I assume these two alias's are really the same person since the posts are so similar.
I haven't seen enough samples of Green River Forge guns to adequately answer you question about liners. Frank Straight was the original owner of the company, but he sold out in 1977 and the company was moved from Bellevue, Washington to Springfield, Oregon. One owner may have used liners and the other didn't, I don't know.
Can you post pictures of your rifle and a close-up picture of your lock so we can see what kind it is? We can better advise you once we can see what you have.
I assume these two alias's are really the same person since the posts are so similar.
I haven't seen enough samples of Green River Forge guns to adequately answer you question about liners. Frank Straight was the original owner of the company, but he sold out in 1977 and the company was moved from Bellevue, Washington to Springfield, Oregon. One owner may have used liners and the other didn't, I don't know.
Can you post pictures of your rifle and a close-up picture of your lock so we can see what kind it is? We can better advise you once we can see what you have.
plmeek
40 Cal.
I doubt that Green River Forge would make a NW trade gun with a brass trigger guard. They did make a trade rifle with brass furniture, though. It was called the Astorian, and available in flint or percussion. It was a half stock rifle versus the full stock NW trade gun.
If your gun is a trade gun with brass trigger guard, then it might have been made from a TOTW kit (or one of the other ML suppliers). Back in the 1970s and 1980s, the Lott lock was about the only suitable lock available for a trade gun. It was used by a number of companies as well as custom/amateur builders on NW guns.
madsweeney
32 Cal
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Yeah miss-typed my email address and it created a whole new identity. Gotta fix that ...
Anyways here are pictures of lock.
The other thing I noticed is that the cock doesn't point to the flash hole like a lot of other guns do - my friend's Pedersoli has the edge of the flint pointing directly at the hole; this one is noticeably above and forward of the hole
Anyways here are pictures of lock.
The other thing I noticed is that the cock doesn't point to the flash hole like a lot of other guns do - my friend's Pedersoli has the edge of the flint pointing directly at the hole; this one is noticeably above and forward of the hole
Attachments
plmeek
40 Cal.
madsweeney,
I looked at the photos of my lock again and think I can make out the "Made In Italy" stamp. It has been mostly removed by filing, but I can still make out the "M" and parts of the other letters.
Before considering replacing the frizzen or the whole lock, I would try some trouble shooting [pun intended]. Based on you comment about being new to flinters, I'll start with some basic stuff, so bear with me.
First, you mentioned the frizzen looks blackened. Take some medium grit sand paper--180 or 220--and sand the face of the frizzen until you have bright metal. You can use a Drimmel with a sanding drum if you want. You want the frizzen clean, and if it had been de-carbonized, you want to sand down to hardened steel.
Next, you want to get the correct size of flint. The cut flint that was in the lock in the pictures I posted earlier is too small, particularly in its length.
The basic method is to measure the width of the frizzen and buy flints of that width. But you need to be cognizant of the length, also. The frizzen on my lock is 1" wide. Going to TOTW website, I found these flints that should be the correct size. The description says they will fit a Lott lock. The width is 1" and the length is 1-1/8".
My actual flint is 7/8" x 1-1/8", but being a little narrow isn't a problem.
Next is installing the flint in the cock jaws. You can use leather or lead sheet. The leather I used in the pictures is on the thin side. It would be better if it were a little thicker. Position the flint in the jaws where you have as small a gap between the front edge of the flint and the face of the frizzen with the cock at half cock and frizzen closed. The gap in the photo below is about an 1/8" wide, which is on the outer limits, but I couldn't set it any closer because it would smash into the edge of the pan. Not good.
Next, you want to make sure the front edge of the flint is square with the face of the frizzen as in this picture.
Now you want to open the frizzen and slowly lower the cock to make sure the inside edge of the flint does not strike the barrel and the front of the flint does not touch any part of the pan.
You mentioned you were concerned that the flint in your gun doesn't "point to the flash hole". This may or may not be a big deal. I would need to see a picture of your lock with a properly fit flint to see how far off it might be. You want the front edge of the flint pointing into the pan like the picture above. It doesn't have to be dead center, though that is desirable. The main objective is creating sparks. Secondary, you want the sparks to fall into the pan.
Now that you have the face of the frizzen cleaned down to fresh metal and a flint properly installed, test it by tripping the sear and see if it sparks.
Some locks like the bevel of the flint face up, like in the pictures above. Some locks spark better with the bevel down as in the photos below. Test the lock both ways.
Note that this particular flint has the front edge closer to the face of the frizzen at half cock and the flint is positioned to strike the frizzen higher up. Both of these conditions can improve the amount of sparks, but only testing will determine for sure.
A trade off with this flint with the bevel down is that the flint no longer points to the center of the pan. It still may work, though, because the front edge is still over the pan. Again, testing will tell.
If you don't get any sparks after dressing the face of the frizzen and testing with a good flint, then I would suspect that the frizzen isn't hardened, and you could try re-hardening it with some case harden compound. This can be tricky if you haven't done it before.
I have a friend that routinely does it to every lock when he builds a new rifle. I may see if he can demonstrate it for me while I photograph each step and then prepare a tutorial on it. He uses an oxy-acetylene torch, which not everyone has. Another friend uses a propane torch with a "one-brick forge" as described in the Wayne Goddard's $50 Knife Shop book. It might be good to document his method, also.
I looked at the photos of my lock again and think I can make out the "Made In Italy" stamp. It has been mostly removed by filing, but I can still make out the "M" and parts of the other letters.
Before considering replacing the frizzen or the whole lock, I would try some trouble shooting [pun intended]. Based on you comment about being new to flinters, I'll start with some basic stuff, so bear with me.
First, you mentioned the frizzen looks blackened. Take some medium grit sand paper--180 or 220--and sand the face of the frizzen until you have bright metal. You can use a Drimmel with a sanding drum if you want. You want the frizzen clean, and if it had been de-carbonized, you want to sand down to hardened steel.
Next, you want to get the correct size of flint. The cut flint that was in the lock in the pictures I posted earlier is too small, particularly in its length.
The basic method is to measure the width of the frizzen and buy flints of that width. But you need to be cognizant of the length, also. The frizzen on my lock is 1" wide. Going to TOTW website, I found these flints that should be the correct size. The description says they will fit a Lott lock. The width is 1" and the length is 1-1/8".
My actual flint is 7/8" x 1-1/8", but being a little narrow isn't a problem.
Next is installing the flint in the cock jaws. You can use leather or lead sheet. The leather I used in the pictures is on the thin side. It would be better if it were a little thicker. Position the flint in the jaws where you have as small a gap between the front edge of the flint and the face of the frizzen with the cock at half cock and frizzen closed. The gap in the photo below is about an 1/8" wide, which is on the outer limits, but I couldn't set it any closer because it would smash into the edge of the pan. Not good.
Next, you want to make sure the front edge of the flint is square with the face of the frizzen as in this picture.
Now you want to open the frizzen and slowly lower the cock to make sure the inside edge of the flint does not strike the barrel and the front of the flint does not touch any part of the pan.
You mentioned you were concerned that the flint in your gun doesn't "point to the flash hole". This may or may not be a big deal. I would need to see a picture of your lock with a properly fit flint to see how far off it might be. You want the front edge of the flint pointing into the pan like the picture above. It doesn't have to be dead center, though that is desirable. The main objective is creating sparks. Secondary, you want the sparks to fall into the pan.
Now that you have the face of the frizzen cleaned down to fresh metal and a flint properly installed, test it by tripping the sear and see if it sparks.
Some locks like the bevel of the flint face up, like in the pictures above. Some locks spark better with the bevel down as in the photos below. Test the lock both ways.
Note that this particular flint has the front edge closer to the face of the frizzen at half cock and the flint is positioned to strike the frizzen higher up. Both of these conditions can improve the amount of sparks, but only testing will determine for sure.
A trade off with this flint with the bevel down is that the flint no longer points to the center of the pan. It still may work, though, because the front edge is still over the pan. Again, testing will tell.
If you don't get any sparks after dressing the face of the frizzen and testing with a good flint, then I would suspect that the frizzen isn't hardened, and you could try re-hardening it with some case harden compound. This can be tricky if you haven't done it before.
I have a friend that routinely does it to every lock when he builds a new rifle. I may see if he can demonstrate it for me while I photograph each step and then prepare a tutorial on it. He uses an oxy-acetylene torch, which not everyone has. Another friend uses a propane torch with a "one-brick forge" as described in the Wayne Goddard's $50 Knife Shop book. It might be good to document his method, also.
madsweeney
32 Cal
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I set a flint bevel down about 1/8" from the frizzen @ half cock. When it's lowered all the way the edge of the flint points right at the frizzen screw and is nearly 3/8" above the pan. Polished out the frizzen as best as I could (there's some serious gouges in it) and still no spark at all. The lock has other issues as well - slips off full cock, gets stuck at half cock. Needs some sear/sear spring work for sure.
I am reasonably conversant with metal work so case hardening the frizzen is within my skill set, if I replace my torch. I ran a file across it and it skates so it's hard-sh but . . .
Might put this one on the shelf as I just today found a NIB (but old stock) Pedersoli Jager for about a third of the list price. The only problem is that the frizzen spring feels stronger than the Main!! might be a better one to learn on
I am reasonably conversant with metal work so case hardening the frizzen is within my skill set, if I replace my torch. I ran a file across it and it skates so it's hard-sh but . . .
Might put this one on the shelf as I just today found a NIB (but old stock) Pedersoli Jager for about a third of the list price. The only problem is that the frizzen spring feels stronger than the Main!! might be a better one to learn on
I see that this is a rather old Thread. I must say, I've been intrigued by and have enjoyed this topic through all four pages, especially the photos! I am always interested in products from this company, especially while it was here in Oregon. I have a 62 cal. Northwest Trade Gun with an extra 50 cal. RB barrel. Mine has a 30" browned barrel. The lock has been replaced by a Siler. What's interesting is the lack of nomenclature any where on the gun, except for GRF engraved inside the Serpent Side-plate. The only other difference I can see between mine and others I've seen , is I have a post front sight and not a blade.
I live about 20 minutes from The Gun Works in Springfield Oregon. David Little works there and was a former employee of not only Green River Forge but the Oregon Gun Works as well. It is my understanding that when the retail store closed, Joe & Suzy Williams bought the remaining inventory and dropped the "Oregon" part of the name. From what I've read, GRF was sold to a former employee of GRRW who moved it to Utah. At some point in time, the Williams acquired the Sharon Barrel Company and renamed it the Oregon Barrel Company, also located in Springfield. For any information regarding GRFs time in Oregon, David would be the person to talk to.
I will post some photos of my gun as soon as I get a chance.
I live about 20 minutes from The Gun Works in Springfield Oregon. David Little works there and was a former employee of not only Green River Forge but the Oregon Gun Works as well. It is my understanding that when the retail store closed, Joe & Suzy Williams bought the remaining inventory and dropped the "Oregon" part of the name. From what I've read, GRF was sold to a former employee of GRRW who moved it to Utah. At some point in time, the Williams acquired the Sharon Barrel Company and renamed it the Oregon Barrel Company, also located in Springfield. For any information regarding GRFs time in Oregon, David would be the person to talk to.
I will post some photos of my gun as soon as I get a chance.
For some reason I couldn't edit my last post so I'll add it here. I just remembered I took these for a Facebook post a while back. The top Trade Gun is a 58 cal. by an unknown maker. The bottom is my 62 cal. GRF and extra barrel. I thought the lock was a Siler but now I'm not sure. It might be a Davis.
I took this on a Trail Walk a couple years ago. I leaned it against a small tree in a field of grass in order to go back to my car and retrieve something. When I returned it had fallen over. As I was cleaning it that night I noticed a crack in the wrist that I don't remember being there before. I have one more gun project I'm finishing up on. After that I plan of repairing the stock. So much for Collectors value. I don't know how it could have cracked just falling in the grass. I'll take some photos when it's all done.
I took this on a Trail Walk a couple years ago. I leaned it against a small tree in a field of grass in order to go back to my car and retrieve something. When I returned it had fallen over. As I was cleaning it that night I noticed a crack in the wrist that I don't remember being there before. I have one more gun project I'm finishing up on. After that I plan of repairing the stock. So much for Collectors value. I don't know how it could have cracked just falling in the grass. I'll take some photos when it's all done.
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Here's the only Factor's Pistol I've seen sold. It belonged to NMLRA Muzzle Blasts magazine writer Rick Hacker. As you can see, it sold for $1835. Here's the link:
https://lsbauctions.com/4878/green-...ntlock-pistol-belt-hook-mfd-1975-atf-antique/
https://lsbauctions.com/4878/green-...ntlock-pistol-belt-hook-mfd-1975-atf-antique/
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I remember seeing that pistol, but it had already sold. I think it is the only one I've seen for sale, as well.
The Gun Works in Springfield, Oregon had one of the North Star West pistols a couple of years ago. This was very similar, in many respects, to the one offered by Green River Forge. It was listed on their own website, as well as on Guns International. It didn't last long.
Pistols by either of those makers are mighty scarce on the used gun market!
Notchy Bob
Lonesome Charley
36 Cl.
I’m planning on doing all my hunting this year with my trade gun. I’m now looking for a companion pistol. Sitting Fox had a kit for a trade pistol (P-9) but it’s not listed on their site. Any suggestions on where I can get a proper kit? If not I’ve seen kits for a French fusy pistols that would work if the other can’t be found. Thanks for your help
LC
LC
I'm not sure about a kit but there's an NMLRA Field Rep back east who builds guns. He said he could make one for me. Let me know if you want his info.
Walt
Lonesome Charley
36 Cl.
Walt, Thank you, I’d love to get his info. I really appreciate it.
Charley
Charley
James Chamberlain
Bethany, [email protected], (405) 326-2067.
I talked to Jim this morning. He said to go ahead and give him a call but don't expect a quick turnaround as there are several orders ahead of you. It also depends on parts availability. From what I understand, he builds many different styles of guns.
Good Luck!
Walt
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