group size

[buggybuilder]

Just got back from the range with my TC Renegade .54
At 50 yds shooting at a 4" bull, my group is about 3 1/2". I will use this primarily for deer hunting but is there a way to get smaller groups?
I was using 70 gr. of FFG, CCI #11 mag caps and a patched round ball. Should I be doing better?
Any suggestions appreciated! Thanks

 

[paulvallandigham]

What patch thickness, and what lube are you using??? These are the things that reduce group size. Also, measure that bore diameter- don't rely on what the marking is on the barrel. Some barrels are cut with new buttons, and may be a bit oversized, and others are cut with a worn button and are undersized. Measure the bore to be sure!

You should work up from your 70 grain load to about 90 grains, in 5 grain increments to find what will group the best in your gun. A lot of T/C guns shoot an 80 grain charge of FFg, and some with FFFg powder into tinier groups.

You don't give the barrel length or the Rate of Twist of the rifling in your gun. That and groove depth are important in choosing ball diameter, patch thickness, and then even powder charges. Check the spent patches for each round you fire. If you don't know how to read your patches, invest $15.00 to buy Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System. You will learn how to read them, and get a much better understanding of how to get the best accuracy from your gun.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

will give you the contact information to reach Dutch.

You also need to learn about cleaning your barrel between shots for best accuracy, and, both the necessity, and how to read your cleaning patches in the field to make adjustments in your cleaning techniques to conform to temperature and humidity conditions. Off the bench, at 50 yards, you should be able to shoot 2 inch groups. Off-hand, if you keep them all in 4 inches, you are going to win a lot of shooting matches! :thumbsup:

 

[longcruise]

Should I be doing better?

Was that offhand or benched? If offhand that was dang good!

If benched, it's still better than many do but you can probably do a bit better. Try both .530 and .535 balls with various patch materials. Find a load that is tight but manageable. Whatever lube you use, apply it consistently. Variations in lube saturation can make a difference.

Also, try wiping and drying the bore between shots. It slows your shooting at the range, but if hunting is your primary mission, then you won't be doing much wiping and drying in the field.

And, in the end, if 3.5" is the best you can do then don't fret. That's good hunting accuracy.

 

[nchawkeye]

Yep, a inch and a half is pretty easily attainable and an inch is what you should work to ...

What did the patches look like after shooting???
Hopefully you do realize that they should be all cotton or linen and thickness normally used is from .015-.020...

Also...I don't care for store bought, prelubed patches, I prefer to buy my own material and experiment with a few proven lubes...

Finally, what are you using for lube???

 

[Trench]

If you're shooting from a bench, you can certainly do better. Play with components such as patch thickness and your charge. When I went from .015 patches to .018 in my Traditions "Hawken" I closed my groups considerably. I got it down to a two inch group at 75 yards from a bench using 70gr of FFg.

 

[Headhunter]

Just by chance, I took my Hawken 58 "Grizzler" to the range today.

I was working on a Match load using .570 Ball, Ticking Cut at the muzzle, FFFG Goex and SPIT.

I had no trouble hitting a Softball size gong at 70 yards with 80 Grains offhand. Put it on Paper with a rest and found out why. It was shooting one ragged hole!

Keep working, you will find it. If you don't, you might be in the market for a more accurate rifle with a good custom barrel.

There will come a time when you can outshoot your rifle. When that happens, start looking at building yourself a rifle.

Headhunter

 

[El Lobo]

I have a .54 Renegade, too. Mine has the stock T/C barrel and is very forgiving as far as loads go. For targets, I use a .530 Hornady roundball on a .015 patch over 50 grains of Fffg Goex for 25 yards. For 50 and 75 yards I go up to 60 grains of Fffg. For hunting I use 90 grains of Fffg with roundball and 110 grains with Maxihunters. From a bench rest I get a pretty consistent 2 inch group at 50 yards.

I like Fffg because it does not seem to foul the barrel of my Renegade as much as Ffg did.

I also recommend you get a copy of Dutch's system. I have only partly implemented his system (mostly out of laziness) but I have seen definite improvement in my offhand groups, nevertheless.

 

[buggybuilder]

For those who were kind enough to answer my questions (with more questions) because I did not supply enough info.
My Renegade .54 has a 27" barrel.
I was using a .530 RB and a .018 pillow tick patch. This is a very "tight" fit on my barrel.
I was using Bore Butter for a lube. Only used a small dab and then smeared it all around.
My spent patches had the black "X" marks on them and only had a very light brown spot where the ball sat, on a few of them I could still see the yellowish tint from the bore butter.
Any other suggestions?

 

[buggybuilder]

I also forgot to add: this shooting was done off the bench and I will probably only use this rifle for deer hunting.
Thanks!

 

[roundball]

Just as another reference with pretty much the same components, my experience with my .54cal T/C Hawken 28" Flintlock benched with the following load, was 100 yard groups as tight as 1+7/8" to a max of 2+3/4".

90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke prelubed over powder wad
.018" T/C prelubed pillow ticking
Hornady .530" ball


If you're not using the following you might want to try them:

1) Oxyoke prelubed wad over powder
2) Set Trigger

 

[flinthead]

I have a deerslayer flintlock in 54 cal. that I bought about 3 weeks ago. At first I had a hard time getting rid of the delay from the flintlock but once I got things sorted out I got groups a tight as 1 1/2" at 50 yards. This was with a patched roundball .535 dia. patched with dennim and lubed with crisco.

I found that 1/2 a square of toilet paper wadded over the powder charge really tightened up the groups! I have no idea why that helped. I was using 60 grains of pyrodex RS over 12 grains of 3f, as a helper to ignite the pyrodex. One half a pan full of 3f was used in the lock.

 

[Tom Compton]

Are you using the stock sights? Round bead and U notch rear?

I found square sights give more consistent groups when front sight level with the rear and adjusted so impact has half the ball above point of aim.

Also, it is amazing how well the eye can center on the middle of even a realitively wide front sight, just make sure there is some light showing on both sides of the notch.

TC

 

[flinthead]

The sights are factory Lyman ones that came on the gun. The front sight is a red fiber optic and the back sight has green fiber optic.

Friday I bought a Lyman trade rifle as I was so impressed with the Deerstalker. Unfortunatly they had stripped the threads on the touch hole in the factory on the trade rifle so I had to re-drill and tap the breech plug and make a new touch hole liner.

The trade rifle is not nearly as accurate as the deerstalker. I thought it would be more accurate as it has a longer sight radius and I like the traditional sights better than the deerstalkers fiber optic ones. I probably just have to work up a good load for it.

 

[Billnpatti]

Dusty,

Paul V. hit the nail on the head when he mentioned Dutch Schults' system. This is an excellent system. It will require that you do a good bit of shooting before discovering the absolute best load for your gun (gotta hate that :grin.

Out of curiosity, I looked up Paul's profile. He seemed to be pretty knowlegible and I wanted to see what he had to say about his experience with black powder. Good Lord!!! What I discovered was a man with extensive experience who has published several articles in the field. We need to sit at his feet and learn. Oh yes, he is a lawyer(I sure wouldn't have told that on myself) but we can overlook that flaw in his character. :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oh, Please! Lets not start WWIII here. :v There are many people here who know a lot more about BP guns than I ever will- Mike Brooks comes to mind--and then there are members like Mike Ameling who are experts in their fields. Roundball is as knowledgeable an expert on T/C guns as you will likely find anywhere outside the factory. And we have lots of experts on history and re-enacting, like Tg, and others who contribute here. If only my budget could tolerate the cost of all the books these gentlemen make reference to here, so that I could have them to read!

If I have any virtue, it is my willingness to tell you, " I don't know " the answer to your question, when I really don't know! I may be different in that I cultivate friends among experts, and never hesitate to consult with them to get you an answer. Not everyone does that.

And, when I do make a mistake- I can misunderstand a question just as badly as the next guy--- I don't mind coming back on the forum to thank the member who has caught my mistake, or corrected me. I have no illusions about my wealth of knowledge, or my abilities to make mistakes.

 

[musketman]

Out of curiosity, I looked up Paul's profile. He seemed to be pretty knowlegible and I wanted to see what he had to say about his experience with black powder. Good Lord!!! What I discovered was a man with extensive experience who has published several articles in the field. We need to sit at his feet and learn. Oh yes, he is a lawyer(I sure wouldn't have told that on myself) but we can overlook that flaw in his character. :wink:

The topic is about suggestions on how to shrink a member's groups, not about Paul Vallandigham's credentials. We had a rash of topics in other sections that needed locked because of personal attacks, let's all do our part to discontinue that tradition.

Just got back from the range with my TC Renegade .54
At 50 yds shooting at a 4" bull, my group is about 3 1/2". I will use this primarily for deer hunting but is there a way to get smaller groups?
I was using 70 gr. of FFG, CCI #11 mag caps and a patched round ball. Should I be doing better?
Any suggestions appreciated! Thanks

 

[Dphar]

Just got back from the range with my TC Renegade .54
At 50 yds shooting at a 4" bull, my group is about 3 1/2". I will use this primarily for deer hunting but is there a way to get smaller groups?
I was using 70 gr. of FFG, CCI #11 mag caps and a patched round ball. Should I be doing better?
Any suggestions appreciated! Thanks

Increase the powder charge too 100-120 in increments and loose the mag caps. They can be counter productive with BP.
Try a thicker patch or change ball size. Change lubes. But only do one at a time. Don't change powder, caps and other stuff all at once.
I would do a powder change increase first. 70 gr of FFG is pretty light for a 54.
A good smooth bore should shoot 3-5" at 50 yards.
A good rifle will shoot ragged holes at 50 years off the bench.

Dan

 

[lonehunter]

Dutch Shults all the way! this man has had way too much time on his hands. And as for me and a lot of others, Thank you Dutch :bow: His system has worked wonders for my groups and I have only been working on it for 2 range sessions, started with 5 in. groups and now down to about 2 1/2 to 3 in. groups, 1 in. groups are getting near, I can feel it. Good luck and keep shooting, it will come. :grin:

 

[renovato]

I didn't read all of the other replies, so I'm sure this has already been suggested. You might try working up your most accurate load using regular caps and dump the magnums. I could never get anything resembling a decent group in any gun that I ever used them with.

They put out a bit too much pop and start the ball moving before the powder has had a chance to come up to pressure. This gives inconsistent pressures and it shows in the groups.

 

[Tom Compton]

IMO fiber optics are great for selling and for seeing at twilight and not worth a damn for groups.
TC