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flintlockmdj

45 Cal.
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I have a Traditions .50 cal percussion half stock that I am having trouble sighting in. When I go to the range with a clean gun the first 2 or 3 shots gives a good tight group, 1" at 25 yards. However even with swabbing between every shot after about the third shot the group opens up and becomes more of a pattern than as group. I am using Remington #11 caps, 50 grains of 2fg and a .010 patch, lube is dish detergent and water with patches just slightly damp.

I have tried tightening the sights, there tight, I even put a sc-sc-sc-scope on it(I'm sorry) and that did the same thing so I took the scope back off.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 
A couple of things may be going on. 50 grains is a pretty light charge for 2f, and in my experience, or in my guns anyway, groups with lighter charges are much better with 3f. 2f just fouls a lot more at lower pressures than it does once you get to 70 or 80 grains.

You don't mention which ball diameter you're using, but .010 is also a pretty thin patch, especially for .490 balls. Might be okay with .495 balls, but that's peculation on my part.

In your shoes I'd switch to 3f or Pyrodex P and try either .015 or .018 patches if you're using .490 balls.
 
Not an expert by any means, however, if I were you I would switch to FFFg and increase my powder charge to a min of 80 grns.

The group shot in the pic below was with my Lyman GPR with a Hornady PRB, CVA prelubed 0.15 patch, and 90 grn of FFFg. I rarely swipe the barrel until about every 10th shot.

RANGE005.jpg
 
What do the patches look like after they are fired? .010" patching is pretty darn thin stuff. I would suggest you use .490" balls, and .015-.018" thick patching, with a good lube. If you like the lubes wet, then by all means use Hoppe's #9 Black Solvent and Cleaning solution. If you want your lube thicker, use bore butter, wonderlube NL1000, or any of its incarnations.

Then, again, I happen to think highly of Stumpy's Moose Juice, and Moose Snot, the formulas being available to you at the Top of the Index page to this forum, under Member Resources. So, you have a choice of making your own, or buying something commercially.

I don't know what you are doing to clean the barrel between shots, but you should be using a good cotton flannel or pocket drill patch, with a good cleaning solvent. Even water, and spit, are better alternatives. If you are shooting in a humid part of the country, run a Damp- not dripping wet- patch down the barrel, stopping an inch short of the breechplug. Then pull the patch out. If its really filthy, and greasy black, GOOD! Its doing its job.

Now, if the other side is useable, flip it over and run it down to the breechplug to pull out any gunk collecting on the face of the plug. If you have a reduced diameter powder chamber, you need to use a separate, smaller diameter swab, or jag with a patch to clean out the powder chamber.


If the other side of that first patch is not useable, then use a second damp patch to do these final tasks. Then run a dry patch down the barrel to dry it out. In the wintertime this generally will not be necessary. Nor is it necessary in very dry conditions, as evaporation will dry the warm barrel quickly. Pay attention to the relative humidity of the air on the days you shoot, and modify your cleaning procedure accordingly. Don't ever be afraid to use an extra cleaning patch down that barrel.

Oh, flipping that first, dirty patch over, and running it down the barrel is a quick way to get the cleaning rod dirty. Wipe it off to save yourself from looking like PigPen at the end of the day. Always take towels, and some soap and water to clean your hands, and maybe your face, and then the outside of the rifle after a long day at the range. It won't make that gun shoot any better, but it will make you feel a lot better about shooting it.

To get small groups, you have to be consistent in how you load each load. Cleaning between shots allows the gun to be shot in the same condition each time its fired. Sometimes, people will dump the first shot, just to dirty the barrel, before shooting for groups. Test your gun both ways, and do what it takes.

Mark your Ramrod when you find a load you like. Always load to the mark, as it will tell you if you are cleaning the barrel properly. I suspect that since its the 3rd shot that is flying off, you are not cleaning the barrel adequately. When crud builds, you won't be able to seat the ball in the same place until you get the crud out of that barrel! And the crud is building in the grooves because you are using too thin a patch, that does not fill the grooves.

My .50 Cal. Rifle has a 39 inch barrel. It likes a load of 60 grains of FFg, or 55 grains of FFFg powder for target work, out to 50 yards. I use the .490 balls, and the .015" patches, with wonderlube. In the Wintertime, I clean with Alcohol, when its below 32 degrees out. I still use Wonderlube, but keep the can with my pre-lubed( by me that morning) patches in an inside pocket so that my body heat keeps the patches flexible.

I hope this helps you. I learned all this from a very kind, older member of my gun club who took me under his wing, and showed me what to look for, and told me how to clean my gun. My shooting improved immensely. I have since helped many other new shooters deal with similar problems, and they are always amazed that us " old guys" can simply listen to them describe the problem, and have a pretty good idea what they are doing wrong. If you have access to a black powder club, with some experienced shooters, ask them to critique your loading and firing techniques. Ask them for suggestions. Watch them load and fire, and clean their guns. You will find out quickly who are the better shooters by the holes in THEIR targets. Those are the guys to immitate.
 
BrownBear said:
A couple of things may be going on. 50 grains is a pretty light charge for 2f, and in my experience, or in my guns anyway, groups with lighter charges are much better with 3f. 2f just fouls a lot more at lower pressures than it does once you get to 70 or 80 grains.

You don't mention which ball diameter you're using, but .010 is also a pretty thin patch, especially for .490 balls. Might be okay with .495 balls, but that's peculation on my part.

In your shoes I'd switch to 3f or Pyrodex P and try either .015 or .018 patches if you're using .490 balls.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
I have a traditions 54 hawken. I have never shot at 25 yards, but my results were much like yours at 50 yards. Even with sand bags, I was hitting in a very random pattern.

I moved to a .530 rb and .15 pre lubed patch. I use ffg pyrodex and nothing under 60g loads. 70-90 are most accurate.Nothing seemed to settle down my pattern until I got approx 100-120 rounds through it. I did convert to musket caps, but that was because I like the ease of loading the larger cap, not sure how it effected the accuracy as the switch was while I was still having issues.

Everything has settled for me now. And I believe it was a combination of things. Gun is broken in now, switched from .10-.15 pre lube patch, switched from T7 to pyrodex, and I generally feel more comfortable with my rifle. It is now very accurate at 50 yards and always on paper at 100....still working to dial in at longer distance, but all in all very happy.
 
One other variable to try...I have seen some guns that you needed to not only clean between shots, but lube the barrel as well...You probably are shooting from a lubed/oiled barrel the first couple of shots, then burn and clean the oil out..Just something else to try...Good Luck...
 
I have the Traditions Hawken in .50. My best accuracy is with 70 grns. ffg, .490 ball and .015 patching. I tried 50 grns and could barely get the ball on the paper with the rear sight jacked almost all the way up! I am now getting multiple 10x shots. Lots of practice helps too! 80 grns worked nice,90 o.k. but the beating is a little rough after multiple shots. The rifling is deep on these barrels and I find I'm good for 10-12 shots without wiping down the bore. I was originally using Pyrodex RS and could shoot 30 shots without swabbing. Switched to Goex because of the price when buying bulk.
 
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