Gun Building and Safety

[Onojutta]

A few comments on another thread about the potential liability of building and selling guns got me wondering, what are the dangerous of a handmade (homemade) gun?

Not talking about general firearm handling that would apply to any gun, but are there specific risks or consideration that the new builder, or buyer, should be aware of?

Assuming the use of a manufactured barrel, about the only two I can think of is problems associated with a touch hole or liner, or a weak stock breaking during recoil.

Does anyone have any stories of mishaps with hand built guns?

 

[chawbeef]

OH boy. I'm looking forward to the answers to this thread. I have the same questions..........Daniel

 

[JohnN]

Me too. If we build a gun using a barrel manufactured by a reputable barrel maker, with a maker installed plug and the barrel explodes who is at fault (if loaded correctly) ? If making a gun for sale would we be better off not installing a vent liner even if the customer wanted one ?

 

[Len Graves]

A very good question. I have finished builds on many rifles that the original buyer figured he was over his head. Sometimes for the original buyer and sometimes I would buy the gun to finish for myself or to sell. I have found many times the breech plug installed incorrectly, I have found many powder drums installed incorrectly, ditto triggers locks etc.. Which brings up the question had I not found the safety situation or the user loading incorrectly on who does the responsibility lie? I know this could be a complex situation.

 

[Coot]

Going off on half cock would be another liability.
To avoid possible legal issues, one custom gunsmith that I know has had documents drawn up that he and the buyer sign. The buyer then orders and pays for the parts (barrel, lock & stock blank) and delivers them to the gunsmith for "assembly". What the documents do is to make the buyer the "builder" (even tho he will not touch a tool) and the "assembler" (gunsmith) is a "contract employee" of the buyer/builder. Sort of like owning a tiny factory that makes one gun at a time & then shooting a product of your own factory. Works for him & got me a very nice fowling piece.

 

[hoochiepapa]

...or just don't make the gun so it will fire. Such as not drilling the vent, and let the buyer do that.

 

[chawbeef]

The only concerns I have with my build is that the barrel has a manufacture date of 1975, and stamped .50-72 for CAL and ROT but no proof marks. Is this normal for muzzle loading barrels????.........Daniel

 

[coloradoclyde]

Sights could be dovetailed to deep or barrel could be made from the wrong steel...also...

 

[Coot]

The only concerns I have with my build is that the barrel has a manufacture date of 1975, and stamped .50-72 for CAL and ROT but no proof marks. Is this normal for muzzle loading barrels????.........Daniel

Depends on the barrel maker and the country of origin - the US does not require barrels to be proofed, barrels made in countries such as Italy are required to be government tested & so marked. Some makers may mark caliber & ROT, others do not bother.

 

[Spikebuck]

The Los Angeles Times A woman has filed suit against McDonald’s Corp., saying she was burned by hot coffee that spilled on her at one of the fast-food chain’s Los Angeles restaurants.

The lawsuit comes 20 years after a jury awarded $2.9 million to a woman who was badly burned after she spilled hot coffee into her lap at a McDonald’s in Albuquerque. That verdict was widely criticized and became a rallying cry for advocates of legal reform.

Lawsuits and awards like the above happen all the time even when everything is done as it should be. So in theory, everything could be perfect, the moron behind the gun puts in some smokeless, perhaps there was no warning (not one custom gun I've bought comes with a warning or barrel stamp like manufactured guns), and the gun blows up killing or maiming the idiot or a bystander. Then the lawsuits start.

Being a Corporation is the way people avoid PERSONAL liability. Then, unless you have intentionally used the corporate assets to perform mischief, only the Corporation's assets are at risk. Of course, then you may have a different tax status, but there's different types of incorporation to also deal with that.

You can have liability insurance for your business.

While I doubt any barrel or lock makers, etc would sign such a document, for a small-time builder especially, you can have a contract with your suppliers that they will indemnify you should their parts fail. Of course, that's only about as good as the assets or insurance they carry.

Net, being in business is a risk no matter what you do and even if you do everything right. If you are going to worry too much about it, don't get into building commercially.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The bottom line is..., how deep are your pockets?

A lawyer isn't going to go after you if he's not going to get paid. So you'd have to have an asset that is worth something, and that's your dwelling for most people. In many states one cannot use a civil suit to turn you into a homeless person, and besides...the bank probably owns more of it than you do. It gets complicated state by state, so check your state laws. So it's much easier for the lawyer to sue the barrel maker.

I've heard, unconfirmed, that the old Sharon Barrel Company went out of business because a person using one of their barrels was injured from operator error. The person who built the rifle had no real assets, but Sharon Barrels did. Although they had no control, and I believe Sharon Barrels won..., the cost of defense finished them.

For that reason, I've also heard, that American black powder barrel makers are located in states where they can protect themselves. They do so by forming a corporation that has very little actual assets. The milling machines, property, and buildings are owned by a private person.

So say the barrel company is called John X. Doe Barrels, which then leases the property, buildings, and machines from the person named John X. Doe. The corporation itself only owns about 50-100 barrels in various stages of completion, so IF they get sued..., the corporation folds. The barrels are the only property owned by the corporation, so that's all that can be grabbed by the plaintiff. A few days later a new corporation is formed, and the company is now called, J.X. Doe Barrels. IF it gets sued in the future, the same procedure happens, but the new corporation is called JXD Barrels, and so on and so on....
So don't bet on being covered by the barrel company.

As mentioned, the only real problem you have as far as actually being "at fault" is that you need to inspect a barrel that you buy with the breech plug installed, is to ensure the plug was properly installed, or you better be sure you can properly breech a barrel.

Now..., as to protection from lawsuits, even if your pockets are "shallow" your customer might be a vengeful lawyer who hates to admit a screw-up happened when loading and firing. So yes, you might tell the guy to drill his own touch-hole (how do you prove that other than your word vs. the plaintiff), or you might go through the convoluted procedure of trying to establish yourself as some sort of "employee/contractor" (you might run that past a lawyer to see if the court will buy that). On the other hand...,

Why not simply have the buyer sign a form that he/she understands that you built the rifle or gun only for display purposes? Even if the touch hole is drilled, how does the plaintiff prove it was you that drilled it? In most states writing trumps verbal communication, so if they ever fired the thing it's on them.

LD

 

[galamb]

I'm not a prolific builder, a couple dozen rifles over the years and I suggest that if you take your time, use quality parts and are "careful" that building a Muzzle Loader is a relatively safe hobby even if you go in with somewhat limited skills.

The most dangerous operation is probably the walk to mail box to grab your mail-order parts.

The barrels from the known builders are "safe" - if you don't exceed their recommended powder loads and you use real black or the subs, they are unlikely to ever fail on you. I have never heard "first or second hand" of a barrel failure where the owner/shooter didn't do something infinitely stupid to cause the failure.

Breech plugs are sometimes portrayed as the most dangerous installation operation which should be left to professionals. Unless you leave so few threads, or file them all off during an install the plug is NOT going to blow out on you. In the 60's guys would go to the hardware store, buy a grade 3 or grade 5 "bolt" and screw it into the threads they cut at the barrel breech (after they had squared off the barrel).

They would then cut off the head of the bolt, file it to shape and weld on a tang (chunk of metal) which was then (again) shaped by hand.

It's NOT rocket science - if you can install a bolt then you can breech a muzzle loader.

The greatest (danger) if you want to use that word would be in not getting the face of the breech plug snugged against the shoulder of the breech. That would leave a gap that would trap "cooties" and start "premature rust", but the plug would not separate from the barrel and smack you between the eyes.

As noted you could potentially cut a dovetail too deep in the barrel or drill too deep (if installing staples) etc which "could" weaken the barrel enough that with a stout load you could get a failure - but again, with some care that should not be an issue and it's not something I have ever seen or heard of causing a failure.

Installing a liner or drum in the side of the barrel is probably one of the operations where you have the "highest odds" of buggering something up. Incorrect threads, stripped threads etc would lead to a failure and there is numerous accounts of liners or drums being "blown out" of a barrel - more often the result of some "messing around" by the owner and not the builder, but it could happen.

Then as was also noted, an incorrectly inlet/tuned trigger could lead to unintentional discharge - pressure on the sear so that it's "barely hanging on" might turn into "boom" if the rifle was knocked. That's why many of us that build spend a considerable amount of "very tedious time" on the trigger install (particularly if it's a double set trigger).

I have found that it takes about "one NFL game" to get a trigger properly tuned. Turn on the game, install the trigger, try it a few times, remove the trigger, touch the bar(s) with a file, replace the trigger - repeat until half time. If it still has a way to go or maybe needs the inletting corrected/tweaked I take it down to the bench and work it some more - back after half time a few more install/uninstall/re-install "tune ups" and by the final whistle it's functioning properly

(the only issue with my procedure is that it can't be done in the "off season" :rotf: )

But even if you do all of that properly, if Billy Bob buys a "brand new rifle" that you built and confuses his "black looking smokeless powder" with black powder and blows himself up you can bet that him (or his surviving relatives) will sue you and the barrel maker, lock maker, powder company, your neighbours dog who was barking while you were building and anyone else that might have even looked at that rifle before he bought it.

So while I think "most people" could easily build a muzzle loader that is 100% safe for "them" to use, I don't know of anyone that could build one "safe enough for the Idiot across the road" to use.

If you sell "unfinished (no touch hole/liner drum installed) - so basically a "decoration" or if you sell a "used firearm", you really do shift the liability to the "new owner" and if they blow themselves up it's really tough to make it "your fault" unless they could show that you "purposely built it to fail".

 

[Vaino]

Wow! I'm getting an ulcer just reading these posts. Good thing I'm on my last build....Fred

 

[Cpl. Ashencheeks]

'Hot Coffee Is Hot' is now the label warning on many coffee cups.

I have seen warnings on buckets and pans stating that children can drown in as little as 1.5 inches of water.

How does anyone ever survive not getting on the Darwin list without a lawyer's warning label.

Using any type of weapon is an inherently dangerous thing to do.

If someone jumps off a building, should the builders of the building be held for liability, or should the owners of the building be held responsible for someone jumping from it. Short of shoddy construction practices or violating building and zoning codes, even if it is an accidental fall, the owner's are liable for at least part of keeping things safe for any potential occupants.

So with the ownership of a potentially dangerous weapon, many liabilities should be with the owner.

Where does it stop?

 

[Onojutta]

We all know that idiots are everywhere and that frivolous lawsuits are the fashion of the day. But what I'm glad has come out of this thread so far is there hasn't been one single mention of anyone knowing of a gun that blew apart and injured the shooter due to a fault with the builder. :hatsoff:

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

I had an ancestor who was a famous gun makers in the original 13. Unfortunately, his journals were lost to a fire some time ago, and the only thing that survived was this period sketch of him:

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It was said you could shoot the top of a fencepost off at 100 yards with one of Old Uncle Offcentre's rifles if you gave it enough Kentucky Windage :hmm:

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

On a more serious note, as far as contracts go: Hire a lawyer to make one up for you

in the magnitude of liability concerning negligence/injuries received from a ml you make: any contract you draw up by yourself or make under the advice of somebody you talked to online (even if that person is a lawyer themselves) will get you completely railed in court.

I personally would never consider selling/giving away a ml I made

 

[BigBoreBLR]

Who said I made it?

 

[Naphtali]

Proofing the rifle either by the maker upon your request or by you is the obvious protocol to eliminate any buyer's anxiety. I routinely do that with all muzzleloaders I buy that are not factory made in USA.

If you want the proofing process I use, refer to:

Kennett, Lee, Gun Digest, 1977 edition, DBI Books, Inc., Northfield, Illinois."Gun Proof in England" (The Proof Act of 1868), pages 164-165.

What you want to do is translate the numbers shown in text to percentages. This allows the information to be used with any rifle.

Hope this helps.

 

[Doug Lykins]

In reality it is very unlikely that a builder would get sued over a gun. My thinking is that it just isn't worth the risk verses the gain. A well known builder can demand good money for his efforts and rightfully so. He can afford to buy liability insurance or become a LLC to protect himself if he chooses to.
I've been a shooter and hunter all my life and have built different guns as a hobby for 30 years. If I thought a gun I built had safety issues I wouldn't sell it, I'd scrap it and start over. I rarely get but just a little more than the cost of parts for anything I've built, be it a ML or modern bolt action rifle. I'm content with that, I enjoy the building process, I shoot what I build and when I'm tired of it I give it to someone or sell it as used.