Gun Fit

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Some years back older guys at the club showed me how improving my shotgun's fit improved my bird shooting. Clay and otherwise. There it was rough and ready. Wood glued on the stock and covered with moleskin. But if you had the money and wanted a best gun made the maker took your measurements and built the gun to fit you.

I am wondering how much gun fit affects a rifle shooter's accuracy. The adjustable stocks of Anschutz target unmentionables suggest it is a factor. Do any custom rifle builders take and use the customer's measurements?
 
I've built quite a few custom unmentionables from a blank yes I do use measurements on the dimensions. It makes a big difference in how the gun mounts, especially when shooting fast is important. It also helps prevent muscle fatigue when offhand target shooting and to some extent benchrest shooting. What applies to the unmentionables also applies to muzzleloaders. When the gun is mounted the sights should be lined up with the target or game. Most of the commercial stocks are designed to fit the average shooter fairly well and by and large that's what they do. Any good custom stock maker will make the stock fit the customer rather than have the customer try to get used to the stock.
 
In my training I was given lists of measurements to make then the appropriate stock measurements to fit the gun to the shooter. Some of these are useful for muzzleloaders but many styles of rifles will not allow these to be used. You can’t make a proper old timey gun with modern measurements. A crescent butt isn’t used the way a bolt action is.
 
In my training I was given lists of measurements to make then the appropriate stock measurements to fit the gun to the shooter. Some of these are useful for muzzleloaders but many styles of rifles will not allow these to be used. You can’t make a proper old timey gun with modern measurements. A crescent butt isn’t used the way a bolt action is.
Very true. Cast off may be a useful common measurement but the other dimensions will be different on muzzleloaders mainly due to the low open sights and the butt plate. I think that's why the early modern gunsmiths said to mount a scope as low as possible due to the stock having been made for the open sights of the times. What I meant to say was that custom stocks, both modern and old time, will benefit from dimensions that fit the shooter but you're right, the dimensions will be different.
 
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Perhaps the biggest factor is the different drop at comb and drop at the heel on the myriad of eras/schools of rifles. I've found for me more drop=a little longer LOP to fit me. I make my early rifles or Jaegers with a shorter LOP than golden age or southern rifles. As mentioned the curved buttplate is a factor as well...they =longer LOP to fit me also.
 
Fit definitely helps accuracy especially with offhand shooting. The most natural pointing/ best fitting gun all else being equal will shoot better for you.
 
Some years back older guys at the club showed me how improving my shotgun's fit improved my bird shooting. Clay and otherwise. There it was rough and ready. Wood glued on the stock and covered with moleskin. But if you had the money and wanted a best gun made the maker took your measurements and built the gun to fit you.

I am wondering how much gun fit affects a rifle shooter's accuracy. The adjustable stocks of Anschutz target unmentionables suggest it is a factor. Do any custom rifle builders take and use the customer's measurements?
Oh yes, and what a difference it can make! After many years of having to fit myself to the rifle I was finally able to buy my first custom made rifle, or maybe I should say semi I custom since I sent him a factory made rifle for him to use the barrel among other parts to make mine. We talked extensively and he explained the measurements, the differences in average versus custom and what my expectations were. Shouldering it for the first time I found the sights to be perfectly lined up, no crunching my neck or holding it crooked. For me, the length of pull needs to be about 15 inches depending on how much drop, cast on and type of butt plate. Another consideration is when you shoot your rifle, what type of clothing will you be wearing? Hunting in winter snow or small game in the early fall? An eighth of an inch less length of pull can make quite a difference sometimes if you've wearing three thick layers of clothing..
 
15 years or so ago at a gun show I shouldered a Hawken style rifle. It fit me perfectly, the sights were immediately in place and focus. Tried it a dozen times, same result. Bought it right away and it is the most easily accurate rifle I own. So I would say yes the stock specs are important.

Recently with the help of this forum, I identified it as a GRRW Hawken, which sweetened the deal even better.

Don
 
Fit is still a factor,,, it's importance is just downgraded due to sights being able to make up for a poor fit.
If the rifle fits you as well as a shotgun that is built for you, your natural point of aim can do lost of the work. When a target shooter exhales and relaxes, the sights should naturally settle on the target. This is enhanced by gun fit.
 
Some years back older guys at the club showed me how improving my shotgun's fit improved my bird shooting. Clay and otherwise. There it was rough and ready. Wood glued on the stock and covered with moleskin. But if you had the money and wanted a best gun made the maker took your measurements and built the gun to fit you.

I am wondering how much gun fit affects a rifle shooter's accuracy. The adjustable stocks of Anschutz target unmentionables suggest it is a factor. Do any custom rifle builders take and use the customer's measurements?
I did gun fittings for the Orvis Company at the Orvis store in San Francisco in the 90's. A properly fit gun makes a HUGE difference in performance with a shotgun. The object of the gun fitting is to get the eye of the shooter directly over the center of the barrel and just slightly above it. As the shooter the only thing you should see would be the bead and about 4 to 6" of the barrel preceding it.

The the big trick is to get the shooter to mount the gun correctly consistently. If you can't mount the gun correctly every time, then all bets are off. When the shooter mounts the gun correctly with a gun that is properly fit, he doesn't have to make any sighting adjustments at all. At the Sandanona Shooting grounds in Millbrook, New York, Orvis offers Sporting Clays (open to the public) as well as some live hunting (if you are a member) and they also offer their shooting lessons (open to the public with reservations for lessons at scheduled dates) utilizing the instinctive shooting method. This is similar to the Churchill method but not quite so strict about stances.

If you have a gun that fits you perfectly this is a simple method. You are taught a couple of stances you can use depending on how they feel to you, but most importantly you are taught to focus on the bird or clay you are shooting at. You typically start with the shotgun held "at the ready" which has the rear stock under the arm with the muzzle pointing up just below eye level. Using clays, you call the pull and the clay launches. The point is to focus entirely on the front edge of the clay and then mount the gun. When the butt of the shotgun hits the pocket of the shoulder, if you've mounted it correctly and the gun is fit correctly, the bead will be on the front edge of that clay. Then you pull the trigger and the clay turns to dust or the bird falls to the ground.

I would use a Spot Shot in the barrel of the try-gun I used at Orvis San Francisco (no longer there) because we couldn't very well fire shotguns in the store in San Francisco. But this Spot Shot worked very well. It worked with a reflective target so I could see where the light beam hit when triggered. With someone who mounted the gun correctly I'd work out the length of pull with the clothing they expected to wear (thick jacket for winter waterfall had to be accounted for). After length of pull I'd start adjusting the drop at heel and drop at comb on the shotgun until it was hitting at the correct level but off to the side.

Once we reached that point, I'd take the shotgun and open the breech to make sure there was nothing in it hand it back to them and then to stand in front of the target. I would caution them not to touch the spot shot button (laser in the eye is no fun), but to stare at my finger the tip of my finger I was holding in the middle of my right eye, and then to mount the shotgun. From there I could see whether their eye was too high or too low in relationship to the barrel, and how far off center it was (they were not allowed to tilt their head over the stock when mounting the gun).

Usually at this point their eye was right above and just slightly to the side of the barrel. From here I could see about how much offset (for right handed shooter) they'd need. I'd then take the shotgun back and adjust the offset in an attempt to get their eye directly over the center of the barrel without tilting their head. With most people about 1/4" would do but some were as little as 1/8" and one fellow was a full 1/2" offset. So I'd check the breech, hand them the shotgun and have them mount the shotgun again staring at the tip of my finger in my right eye.

So this measurement "offsets" the stock from the straight plane of the barrel allowing you to see directly down the center of the barrel without tilting your head over or making other sighting adjustments. This is really the magic of a custom fit shotgun.

Once I adjusted the offset (or onset for a left handed shooter) with their eye centered over the barrel at the correct height with the bead in the center of the pupil of their eye, I'd move out of the way and have them mount and shoot the target about 10 times fairly quickly. When fit correctly, that red dot would hit the bullseye every time - 10 out of 10. If they missed the correct mount, it would always miss.

Then I would take the shotgun and using a level flat glass tabletop measure and write down the specification for the shotgun that would fit them. It was not uncommon for them to come back a year later to have measurements taken and a custom fit shotgun ordered for their spouse or other member of the family. It really makes a huge difference to be able to hit what you're looking at by just focusing on it and mounting the gun correctly. I could usually get the fitting done in anywhere from as little as 45-minutes to as much as an hour and a half.
 
Of course inclement weather and the clothing that goes with it can ruin all of the above, lol. (That is part of why I put a rear sight on the smoothbores I don't "wingshoot" with much if at all.)
 
I did gun fittings for the Orvis Company at the Orvis store in San Francisco in the 90's. A properly fit gun makes a HUGE difference in performance with a shotgun. The object of the gun fitting is to get the eye of the shooter directly over the center of the barrel and just slightly above it. As the shooter the only thing you should see would be the bead and about 4 to 6" of the barrel preceding it.

The the big trick is to get the shooter to mount the gun correctly consistently. If you can't mount the gun correctly every time, then all bets are off. When the shooter mounts the gun correctly with a gun that is properly fit, he doesn't have to make any sighting adjustments at all. At the Sandanona Shooting grounds in Millbrook, New York, Orvis offers Sporting Clays (open to the public) as well as some live hunting (if you are a member) and they also offer their shooting lessons (open to the public with reservations for lessons at scheduled dates) utilizing the instinctive shooting method. This is similar to the Churchill method but not quite so strict about stances.

If you have a gun that fits you perfectly this is a simple method. You are taught a couple of stances you can use depending on how they feel to you, but most importantly you are taught to focus on the bird or clay you are shooting at. You typically start with the shotgun held "at the ready" which has the rear stock under the arm with the muzzle pointing up just below eye level. Using clays, you call the pull and the clay launches. The point is to focus entirely on the front edge of the clay and then mount the gun. When the butt of the shotgun hits the pocket of the shoulder, if you've mounted it correctly and the gun is fit correctly, the bead will be on the front edge of that clay. Then you pull the trigger and the clay turns to dust or the bird falls to the ground.

I would use a Spot Shot in the barrel of the try-gun I used at Orvis San Francisco (no longer there) because we couldn't very well fire shotguns in the store in San Francisco. But this Spot Shot worked very well. It worked with a reflective target so I could see where the light beam hit when triggered. With someone who mounted the gun correctly I'd work out the length of pull with the clothing they expected to wear (thick jacket for winter waterfall had to be accounted for). After length of pull I'd start adjusting the drop at heel and drop at comb on the shotgun until it was hitting at the correct level but off to the side.

Once we reached that point, I'd take the shotgun and open the breech to make sure there was nothing in it hand it back to them and then to stand in front of the target. I would caution them not to touch the spot shot button (laser in the eye is no fun), but to stare at my finger the tip of my finger I was holding in the middle of my right eye, and then to mount the shotgun. From there I could see whether their eye was too high or too low in relationship to the barrel, and how far off center it was (they were not allowed to tilt their head over the stock when mounting the gun).

Usually at this point their eye was right above and just slightly to the side of the barrel. From here I could see about how much offset (for right handed shooter) they'd need. I'd then take the shotgun back and adjust the offset in an attempt to get their eye directly over the center of the barrel without tilting their head. With most people about 1/4" would do but some were as little as 1/8" and one fellow was a full 1/2" offset. So I'd check the breech, hand them the shotgun and have them mount the shotgun again staring at the tip of my finger in my right eye.

So this measurement "offsets" the stock from the straight plane of the barrel allowing you to see directly down the center of the barrel without tilting your head over or making other sighting adjustments. This is really the magic of a custom fit shotgun.

Once I adjusted the offset (or onset for a left handed shooter) with their eye centered over the barrel at the correct height with the bead in the center of the pupil of their eye, I'd move out of the way and have them mount and shoot the target about 10 times fairly quickly. When fit correctly, that red dot would hit the bullseye every time - 10 out of 10. If they missed the correct mount, it would always miss.

Then I would take the shotgun and using a level flat glass tabletop measure and write down the specification for the shotgun that would fit them. It was not uncommon for them to come back a year later to have measurements taken and a custom fit shotgun ordered for their spouse or other member of the family. It really makes a huge difference to be able to hit what you're looking at by just focusing on it and mounting the gun correctly. I could usually get the fitting done in anywhere from as little as 45-minutes to as much as an hour and a half.
Thank you so much for that exposition! I think the first and hardest thing I learned was to point the gun rather than to try and aim it at a flying target.
Robert Ruark likened shooting flying to trying to squirt someone running with a garden hose. He had a point.
 
Some years back older guys at the club showed me how improving my shotgun's fit improved my bird shooting. Clay and otherwise. There it was rough and ready. Wood glued on the stock and covered with moleskin. But if you had the money and wanted a best gun made the maker took your measurements and built the gun to fit you.

I am wondering how much gun fit affects a rifle shooter's accuracy. The adjustable stocks of Anschutz target unmentionables suggest it is a factor. Do any custom rifle builders take and use the customer's measurements?
I am a stockmaker. The best tried and true way to get the right fit is to try different guns to see which one fits. When you find one, measure from the front face of the trigger back to the middle of the butt plate or pad. It's better to have a stock too short than to have one too long. If your wanting a rifle made then only try rifles. Wanting a shotgun made then only try shotguns. As far as a stockmaker taking measurements??? Just picking up the guns to see how they feel is the best way. There are many variants to how a stock fits a person by (measurements). Arm length, chest size, cheek size, body build, length of arm, size of hand, how one pulls up the firearm to shoot and other factors. Just shouldering different ones is the best way. I hope this helps.
 
To put it simply, fit is everything. As Hanshi said, above, if it fits the sights are right where you need them. If the sights line up perfectly when you mount the rifle, the cheek weld is consistent, the sight line is consistent, and the shooter does not need to move the gun around, or move their head around, giving a more consistent hold, squeeze, follow through. Consistency is what makes TENS happen. Poor fit causes flyers.

ADK Bigfoot
 
Age and health can change what fit a shooter needs. As eyes age, peeper closer to the eye than open sight might be needed. A barrel can gain weight and be difficult to hold up for offhand shooting. Loss of muscle mass can require a shorter length of pull to feel right. All those difficulties affected me. I was blessed to have a scaled down rifle built for me current needs.
 
Off on a tangent: One eye open? Or both? I should think always both with a shotgun. But rifles and handguns?

Even though I am legally blind (20/500) in the right eye, I am consistently better with both eyes open.
I mostly shoot both eyes open. Shotgun, always. Pistol, 99% of the time, on very rare occasion when stretching a shot beyond normal pistol distance, I will catch myself squinting (but not fully closing) my non-dominant eye.
Rifle, mostly both eyes open, depending on sights. Open sights like most muzzleloaders I find is the same as pistol, mostly both eyes open, but occasionally that squint comes into play. Modern guns with scout scope (i don'tuse any traditionally mounted scopes anymore), red dot, or properly mounted/positioned ghost ring/aperture sights, both eyes open.

This can be mingled with your fit question. The guns that fit me, or I have ridiculous amounts of time in with that gun,, both eyes open seems easier as I don't have to concentrate on finding and arranging the sights. (Sometimes with my primary pistol I'll catch myself not really even using them)
 
You can adjust for bench shooting, but for offhand shooting the "fit" of the rifle or shotgun definately helps your shooting
 
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