Gun Powder "substitutes"

[wb78963]

Hello the Camp,

I am new to this forum, but my Gun Powder experience goes back to Du Pont Orange Extra Sporting powder, and Du Pont Gun Powder in the oval metal cans.

Here we go, it is my opinion that saying some propellants, that will go nameless here, are substitutes for real Black Gun Powder is like saying Kentucky hill country moonshine is a substitute for forty-year-old single barrel Scotch Whiskey.

I realize that there are some benighted areas of this country where stupid or narrow-minded politicians make the possession of Gun Powder illegal. (One reason I am glad my Grand Father was smart enough to move to Texas.)

Where Gun Powder is forbidden and for percussion gun use there is a replacement that will treat your gun barrels more kindly . That is the America Pioneer Powder / Black MZ / Jim Shokey’s Gold which is the same powder under a different labels. It is a different chemistry that the other stuff, is easy to clean and is no more “corrosive” that Gun Powder. Unfortunately, it will not work well in flint locks.
I am not sponsored by APP. Just a satisfied user.

And no, it is not Gun Powder, but is an acceptable replacement in areas where Gun Powder is forbidden.

This link will take you to the core of my argument.

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56362.0.html

That is my opinion, and like belly buttons, everyone has one.
Walt

 

[Pete G]

Where is black powder forbidden

 

[wb78963]

I understand that there are cities or counties in the US that prohibit real (EXPLOSIVE) Gun Powder.
In explanation Gun Powder is what my old Du Pont can calls black powder.

 

[Erwan]

Where is black powder forbidden

It begins in France, the black powder is not officially forbidden but we can't dispose more than four pounds for each guy et it become very hard to find powder, so.......
Three years ago th BP was free to buy everywhere but with the new govnt. and with new laws all is going to be forbidden when concerning arms....

 

[mooman76]

I know of nowhere in the US that it is illegal, hard to get maybe but not illegal to possess.

 

[Erwan]

I know of nowhere in the US that it is illegal, hard to get maybe but not illegal to possess.

Not for us since almost three years, before we had no difficulties with that but now it's another melody...
Four pounds (including ammunitions in boxes) by shooter is the limit and more is illegal and if you make your own powder this can help you to get some problems:

Article L2353-4 of the Defense Code (copy) :

Are punishable by five years imprisonment and a fine of 75,000 euros (~75,000$):

1° The manufacture, without authorization, of an explosive or incendiary device or an explosive product, whatever its composition;

2° the manufacture of any other element or substance intended to be used in the composition of an explosive product.

The penalties are increased to ten years' imprisonment and a fine of 500,000 euros when the offence is committed in an organised gang.

The penalty of deprivation of liberty incurred by the perpetrator or accomplice of the offences provided for in this article shall be reduced by half, if, having notified the administrative or judicial authority, it has made it possible to put a stop to the incriminated acts and to identify, where appropriate, the other perpetrators or accomplices.

​

 

[Eutycus]

It looks like the words "forbidden" and "illegal" are getting mixed up and interchanged.

 

[SDSmlf]

I understand that there are cities or counties in the US that prohibit real (EXPLOSIVE) Gun Powder.

Please share the list of cities and counties in the US (and a link to any regulation or laws) that prohibit real Gun Powder. It’s possible some on this forum are not in compliance with black powder laws and I bet they would be grateful to know about and understand these regulations before they run afoul with the authorities.

 

[Gun Tramp]

like saying Kentucky hill country moonshine is a substitute for forty-year-old single barrel Scotch Whiskey.

On the other hand, there is no substitute for Kentucky hill country moonshine.

 

[SDSmlf]

That is the America Pioneer Powder / Black MZ / Jim Shokey’s Gold which is the same powder under a different labels. It is a different chemistry that the other stuff, is easy to clean and is no more “corrosive” that Gun Powder. Unfortunately, it will not work well in flint locks.
I am not sponsored by APP. Just a satisfied user.

The APP is OK for the SASS crowd hitting a steel plate a 7 yards, but is an utter disappointment if consistency and accuracy are required, even if it cleans up easy. It loses power once the container is open, and is inconsistent from container to container. The stick versions seem even more useless than the loose stuff.... the classic square peg in a round hole. Just my opinion.

 

[brewer12345]

Actually, I rather liked Black MZ and even shot my deer with it this fall. I stocked up so I have enough to fool with for a while, but the manufacturer is out of business and it is no more. When it is gone I will have to figure out what to do. Probably will just end up doing mail order for real black.

 

[Erwan]

It looks like the words "forbidden" and "illegal" are getting mixed up and interchanged.

Now, for us, it's starting to have the same meaning and I hope that it won't happen to you in any state: if it did, it would be the beginning of the end for you too as far as traditional weapons are concerned .

 

[Historian]

Erwan,
Just curious sir as to why France is so paranoid of real BP when I have never heard of a recent terrorist action where anyone has used BP, OR a person going on a shooting spree with a muzzleloader. Is it just France or the EU? Sorry to hear about those issues as they are really saddening to hear that certain people over there are that infantile in their thinking. Muzzleloaders and BP are not a threat to anyone in the modern age.

Hope for the best for France.

 

[Redstick Lee]

I recently had a disappointing test of some 777 I had purchased for reloading BPCartridges.
Shoots ok, not great.......
"Cleans up with hot water" the bottle says, so I do exactly that.....oil as normal, and place in presentation case as normal.
60 days later the revolver is seized with red rust to the point of going into "ye olde cleaning vat".
Saved the gun, no problem, but gave me quite a fright.

No more playing with ANYTHING that's not real Holy Black !!

 

[crvlars]

I recently had a disappointing test of some 777 I had purchased for reloading BPCartridges.
Shoots ok, not great.......
"Cleans up with hot water" the bottle says, so I do exactly that.....oil as normal, and place in presentation case as normal.
60 days later the revolver is seized with red rust to the point of going into "ye olde cleaning vat".
Saved the gun, no problem, but gave me quite a fright.

No more playing with ANYTHING that's not real Holy Black !!

I has been using triple seven and pyredex in all my revolvers,pistols and long guns.
cleaning with hot water and good oil and basllistol. never had a rust problem.
Love the stuff

 

[Redstick Lee]

I has been using triple seven and pyredex in all my revolvers,pistols and long guns.
cleaning with hot water and good oil and basllistol. never had a rust problem.
Love the stuff

glad the subs work for you......
i've rotted BP revolvers w/ Pyrodex (took years) and after this episode with T-7, i'll just stick with real black......easy to get where I live & never rotted a firearm with it.

 

[n.h.schmidt]

I also mostly use Pyrodex in my rifles. Sometimes real black too. I clean with room temp water and window cleaner . Dry everything and use full strength Basllistol. I have done this for a long time and no rust. I even use corrosive home made caps. You really have to be on your game to not rust anything using them. Maybe it has to do with whit where you live as much as anything.

 

[Frontier's]

If you rotted any gun with any powder, its on your shoulders for doing such a slop clean up at the end of the day.

 

[user 13289]

Just some facts: Pyrodex (or any perchlorated substitute) residue is highly acidic and FAR more corrosive than BP residue. If you use Pyrodex you must be extremely prompt and thorough with your cleaning to avoid corrosion.

The fumes contain cyanide as well, so never ever light any amount of the stuff with inadequate air-flow.

BP residue lets you be somewhat more casual with cleaning. Unlike perchlorated powders doesn't immediately start digging deep pits into barrel steel if it does get a little damp before cleaning, but of course must be cleaned thoroughly as well for best bbl health.

I no longer use it for any gun. But I have heard of folks killing rodents with the fumes, and could use some for that.

 

[Zonie]

There is no cyanide in Pyrodex. If there was, it would have to be listed in the Material Data Safety Sheet.
The information below is a copy of the Hodgdon Pyrodex MSDS

"...
Section II. HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS/IDENTITY INFORMATION
Hazardous Components
(Chemical Identity: Common Name(s) OSHA PEL ACGIH TLV Other Limits %(optional)
Charcoal NA NA NA
Sulfur NA NA NA
Potassium Nitrate NA NA NA
Potassium Perchlorate NA NA NA
Graphite NA 2.5 mg/m3 Respirable Dust
Other: Other ingredients are trade secrets, but can be disclosed per 29 CFR 1910.1200(i)
Section III. PHYSICAL/CHEMICAL CHARACTERISTICS
Boiling Point Not Applicable Specific Gravity (H2O =1): Bulk density is 0.75 (g/cc)
Vapor Pressure (mm HG): Not Applicable Melting Point: Not Applicable
Vapor Density (AIR = 1) Not Applicable Evaporation Rate: Not Applicable
Solubility in Water: Partially (Butyl Acetate = 1)
Appearance and Odor: Medium to dark pray granular solid. Slight odor when ignited.
Section IV. FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA
Auto-ignition Temperature: 740 (F) (Pellets: 500[f]) Flammable Limits: N/A LEL: N/A UEL: N/A
Extinguishing Media: For unattended fire prevention, water can be used to disburse burning Pyrodex. Pyrodex has its own oxygen supply, so flame
smothering techniques are ineffective. Water may be used on unburnt Pyrodex to retard further spread of fire.
Special Fire Fighting Procedures: Pyrodex is extremely flammable and may deflagrate. Get away and evacuate the area.
Unusual Fire and Explosion Hazards: As with any pyrotechnic, if under confinement or piled in moderate quantities, Pyrodex can explode
violently, toxic fumes such as sulfur dioxide are emitted while burning.
Section V. REACTIVITY DATA
Stability Unstable: Conditions to Avoid: Avoid storage at temperatures above 150[F],
Stable: X impact, hot embers, sparks and static discharges.
Page 1 of 3
file://C:\DOCUME~1\reeder\LOCALS~1\Temp\triGEHML.htm 7/8/2002
Incompatibility (Materials to Avoid) Metal powders and acids
Hazardous Decomposition or Byproducts: CO, CO2, SO2, non-metallic oxides, and suspended particulate matter from burning.
Hazardous May Occur: Conditions to Avoid: Not known to occur.
Polymerization: Will Not Occur: X
Section VI. HEALTH HAZARD DATA
Route(s) of Entry: Inhalation?: Yes Skin?: Yes Ingestion?: Yes
Health Hazards (acute and Chronic): TLV unknown for ingestion of dust, Acute oral LD50 in rats is calculated to be 4.0 [g/kg body weight].
Carcinogenicity: No NTP? No IARC? No OSHA regulated?: No
Signs and Symptoms of Exposure: Burning or itching of the eye, nose, or skin; shortness of breath.
Medical Conditions Generally Aggravated by Exposure: Some people may be unusually sensitive to the product.
Emergency and First Aid Procedures: Remove patient from exposure, and if skin contact, wash affected area with copious amounts of water.
Section VII. PRECAUTIONS FOR SAFE HANDLING AND USE
Steps to Be Taken in Case Material is Released of Spilled: Do not smoke in the area. Powder should be scooped or swept up using non-sparking,
conductive tools. This should be done in a manner so that no dusting occurs.
Waste Disposal Method: Wet thoroughly with water to dissolve the powder. Comply with all federal, state, and local laws.
Precautions to Be Taken in Handling and Storing: Pyrodex is a solid propellant which is designed to propell a mass. Thus appropriate care should
be taken to avoid heavy confinement and ignition sources such as, but not limited to, heat, static discharge, embers, friction, and impact. ..."

For the curious, here is what the two oxidizers used in Pyrodex consist of:

Potassium perchlorate consists of potassium, chlorine and oxygen.
Potassium nitrage consists of potassium, nitrogen and oxygen.