Gun Powder "substitutes"

[Carbon 6]

If burning Pyrodex created any form of cyanide in a form that was harmful or deadly, Hodgdon would have had to report it in the MSDS.
Failure to do that would result in the Federal Government imposing severe penalties on Hodgdon and prohibit them from making or selling Pyrodex in any form.

Dicyandiamide; CAS No.: 461-58-5 or Cyanoguanidine aren't even listed on OSHA's online chemical database.

 

[Carbon 6]

The patent:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4128443A/en

That was good but this one tell all.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7344610B2/en

 

[Okie Hog]

That was good but this one tell all.

Yep, sulfur is the culprit.

"In the case of blackpowder, such compounds include hydrogen sulfide, potassium sulfate, potassium thiosulfate, and potassium sulfide. In the case of Pyrodex powder, the sulfur-containing byproducts include principally potassium sulfate and potassium thiosulfate. Such sulfur compounds are difficult to remove from gun barrels where repeated use of the firearms without intermediate cleaning is frequently practiced. Without cleaning, such sulfur compounds combine with moisture and are highly corrosive to the metal parts of the firearm."

 

[Redstick Lee]

I'll state for the record that I have absolutely no idea if Pyrodex contains OR produces any type of cyanide .

My angle was only that Mfgr.produced MSD sheets (the newest designation of 3 or 4) should be taken with a grain of salt, and utmost caution should be used if harmful chemicals are suspected in ANY product.

I've worked with dangerous chemicals for 35 years (tonight was my employment anniversary) and even when they were called SD Sheets decades ago, the "proprietary ingredient" clause......now called the "Trade Secret" line has without fail been used as a giant loophole allowing mfgrs' to use ingredients in products that they don't want the public aware of without going to the time, trouble, and expense of filing a class action lawsuit.

MY own employer hypothetically might do this for this exact purpose on a daily basis.

That said......I used Pyrodex for many years with no ill physical effects.
BUT my personal preference is real BP....ordered 4# per order from Grafs, and since their house brand is generic Schuetzen that's what my last 2 orders have been....affordable, clean enough, and nice & strong (for MY purposes).

YMMV of course & everyone should do what makes them smile......as long as it's muzzle-loading !

 

[user 13289]

I'm not sure what part of "dicyanamide" you fine folks cannot understand. It breaks down with heat. The following is from emails between Bill and myself. I won't post again on this subject.




Wade,

Dug back through my storage disks.

The basic Pyrodex formulation as seen in the original patent papers.

45 parts potassium nitrate

9 parts charcoal

6 parts sulfur

19 parts potassium perchlorate

11 parts sodium benzoate

6 parts dicyanamide

1 to 4 parts water


Take Care, Bill


++++++++++++

Bill Knight's words:
The Pyrodex patent formulation shows the inclusion of a chemical called
dicyanamide. This is added to prevent pre-combustion powder corrosion
of the cartridge case or the bore in a muzzleloading firearm. Corrosion
by the 17 parts of potassium perchlorate that makes up one of the two
part oxidizer system. Pyrodex is produced with a final moisture content
of 1%. The combination of the moisture residual in the powder grains
and the perchlorate present would normally start pit corrosion where the
powder grains came in contact with a metal surface.

As part of my normal daily duties in the synthetic polymer plant I
handled 40 bags of this dicyanamide. On both sides of the bags were
large red warning labels. "Avoid fire or flame." "Do not heat to
decomposition temperature." "Evolves highly toxic fumes of cyanide."

I discovered this only after having flashed powder samples on steel and
brass plates in my basement work shop when I was looking at combustion
residue corrosion. Breathing the fumes from the powder flashing made me
rather ill. In other work in the chemical plant I had been exposed to
cyanide while breathing acrylonitrile fumes which the body metabolizes
and releases cyanide into the blood stream. Twice hospitalized for that.

One day at Dixon's I was questioned about BP subs by a college chemistry
professor who was the shooting instructor for a Boy Scout troop down
near Philadelphia. When I mentioned the dicyanamide in Pyodex to him he
looked like he had been gut shot. The Boy Scouts were not allowed to
shoot real black powder. They had to shoot Pyrodex on a covered range
with a very low roof. But he verified that the dicyanamide did indeed
during the high temperatures of Pyrodex combustion in the guns.

++++++++++++++

Upon revisiting with Bill, I am reminded that his bone marrow is corrupted from his various chemical exposures as a professional in that field. He's now a free-bleeder and requires blood platelet transfusions regularly. A slight injury can cause him to bleed out. He's already outlived his "expiration date" given when diagnosed with the current condition. The condition was not from BP/sub work but in other industrial chemistry toxicities.

I won't be troubling him anymore to refresh my understanding of this most popular, despite it's shortcomings, substitute powder. The cyanide gas doesn't bother me, it's the etching that perchlorated powders cause to steel that stops me from using it. Also through extensive readings of his work I no longer care to do business with Hodgdon (though I've used all types of their powders) and won't be buying any more Goex since H now owns that brand. There's plenty of other BP choices available from plenty of sources.

Use whatever you like, but don't be mislead, don't fall for lies of corporations, and choose wisely. I've made my choices and perhaps helped illuminate some shortcomings of everybody's favorite sub. I don't care if you use it or not. Just don't be ignorant about it. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Keep yer powder dry. WP

 

[Okie Hog]

i'm very sorry to learn that Bill Knight is sick.

According to folks on the now defunct Open Range website, the formula for Pyrodex has changed since the original patent. Poster Dutch Bill on that site may have been Bill Knight.

My expensive borescope shows no pitting from the use of Pyrodex or the other black powder substitutes in properly cared for muzzleloaders.

i have seen a dull glazing in the rear portion of bores where unfired APP powders, JSG, Goex Pinnacle and Black MZ, sat for months.

Good luck to you.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I'm not sure what part of "dicyanamide" you fine folks cannot understand. It breaks down with heat. The following is from emails between Bill and myself. I won't post again on this subject.
we all gotta die sometime Red
it makes me laugh about all the "studies" that are done mostly by boomers who took every drug known to man then lecture us (for money) about the evils of some product



Wade,

Dug back through my storage disks.

The basic Pyrodex formulation as seen in the original patent papers.

45 parts potassium nitrate

9 parts charcoal

6 parts sulfur

19 parts potassium perchlorate

11 parts sodium benzoate

6 parts dicyanamide

1 to 4 parts water


Take Care, Bill


++++++++++++

Bill Knight's words:
The Pyrodex patent formulation shows the inclusion of a chemical called
dicyanamide. This is added to prevent pre-combustion powder corrosion
of the cartridge case or the bore in a muzzleloading firearm. Corrosion
by the 17 parts of potassium perchlorate that makes up one of the two
part oxidizer system. Pyrodex is produced with a final moisture content
of 1%. The combination of the moisture residual in the powder grains
and the perchlorate present would normally start pit corrosion where the
powder grains came in contact with a metal surface.

As part of my normal daily duties in the synthetic polymer plant I
handled 40 bags of this dicyanamide. On both sides of the bags were
large red warning labels. "Avoid fire or flame." "Do not heat to
decomposition temperature." "Evolves highly toxic fumes of cyanide."

I discovered this only after having flashed powder samples on steel and
brass plates in my basement work shop when I was looking at combustion
residue corrosion. Breathing the fumes from the powder flashing made me
rather ill. In other work in the chemical plant I had been exposed to
cyanide while breathing acrylonitrile fumes which the body metabolizes
and releases cyanide into the blood stream. Twice hospitalized for that.

One day at Dixon's I was questioned about BP subs by a college chemistry
professor who was the shooting instructor for a Boy Scout troop down
near Philadelphia. When I mentioned the dicyanamide in Pyodex to him he
looked like he had been gut shot. The Boy Scouts were not allowed to
shoot real black powder. They had to shoot Pyrodex on a covered range
with a very low roof. But he verified that the dicyanamide did indeed
during the high temperatures of Pyrodex combustion in the guns.

++++++++++++++

Upon revisiting with Bill, I am reminded that his bone marrow is corrupted from his various chemical exposures as a professional in that field. He's now a free-bleeder and requires blood platelet transfusions regularly. A slight injury can cause him to bleed out. He's already outlived his "expiration date" given when diagnosed with the current condition. The condition was not from BP/sub work but in other industrial chemistry toxicities.

I won't be troubling him anymore to refresh my understanding of this most popular, despite it's shortcomings, substitute powder. The cyanide gas doesn't bother me, it's the etching that perchlorated powders cause to steel that stops me from using it. Also through extensive readings of his work I no longer care to do business with Hodgdon (though I've used all types of their powders) and won't be buying any more Goex since H now owns that brand. There's plenty of other BP choices available from plenty of sources.

Use whatever you like, but don't be mislead, don't fall for lies of corporations, and choose wisely. I've made my choices and perhaps helped illuminate some shortcomings of everybody's favorite sub. I don't care if you use it or not. Just don't be ignorant about it. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Keep yer powder dry. WP

 

[n3wyu]

Question is how much cyanide a powder charge produces? Also your outside and usually there's always air movement and I don't know of anyone shooting at an inside range with all the smoke a muzzle loader produces. You know apple seeds contain a small amount of cyanide but you don't hear of anyone being poisoned by apples. I guess if you ate a whole bag of them you would be in trouble!

 

[SPQR70AD]

I'm not sure what part of "dicyanamide" you fine folks cannot understand. It breaks down with heat. The following is from emails between Bill and myself. I won't post again on this subject.
every body gotta die some time Red
(forest gump...is that you?)



Wade,

Dug back through my storage disks.

The basic Pyrodex formulation as seen in the original patent papers.

45 parts potassium nitrate

9 parts charcoal

6 parts sulfur

19 parts potassium perchlorate

11 parts sodium benzoate

6 parts dicyanamide

1 to 4 parts water


Take Care, Bill


++++++++++++

Bill Knight's words:
The Pyrodex patent formulation shows the inclusion of a chemical called
dicyanamide. This is added to prevent pre-combustion powder corrosion
of the cartridge case or the bore in a muzzleloading firearm. Corrosion
by the 17 parts of potassium perchlorate that makes up one of the two
part oxidizer system. Pyrodex is produced with a final moisture content
of 1%. The combination of the moisture residual in the powder grains
and the perchlorate present would normally start pit corrosion where the
powder grains came in contact with a metal surface.

As part of my normal daily duties in the synthetic polymer plant I
handled 40 bags of this dicyanamide. On both sides of the bags were
large red warning labels. "Avoid fire or flame." "Do not heat to
decomposition temperature." "Evolves highly toxic fumes of cyanide."

I discovered this only after having flashed powder samples on steel and
brass plates in my basement work shop when I was looking at combustion
residue corrosion. Breathing the fumes from the powder flashing made me
rather ill. In other work in the chemical plant I had been exposed to
cyanide while breathing acrylonitrile fumes which the body metabolizes
and releases cyanide into the blood stream. Twice hospitalized for that.

One day at Dixon's I was questioned about BP subs by a college chemistry
professor who was the shooting instructor for a Boy Scout troop down
near Philadelphia. When I mentioned the dicyanamide in Pyodex to him he
looked like he had been gut shot. The Boy Scouts were not allowed to
shoot real black powder. They had to shoot Pyrodex on a covered range
with a very low roof. But he verified that the dicyanamide did indeed
during the high temperatures of Pyrodex combustion in the guns.

++++++++++++++

Upon revisiting with Bill, I am reminded that his bone marrow is corrupted from his various chemical exposures as a professional in that field. He's now a free-bleeder and requires blood platelet transfusions regularly. A slight injury can cause him to bleed out. He's already outlived his "expiration date" given when diagnosed with the current condition. The condition was not from BP/sub work but in other industrial chemistry toxicities.

I won't be troubling him anymore to refresh my understanding of this most popular, despite it's shortcomings, substitute powder. The cyanide gas doesn't bother me, it's the etching that perchlorated powders cause to steel that stops me from using it. Also through extensive readings of his work I no longer care to do business with Hodgdon (though I've used all types of their powders) and won't be buying any more Goex since H now owns that brand. There's plenty of other BP choices available from plenty of sources.

Use whatever you like, but don't be mislead, don't fall for lies of corporations, and choose wisely. I've made my choices and perhaps helped illuminate some shortcomings of everybody's favorite sub. I don't care if you use it or not. Just don't be ignorant about it. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Keep yer powder dry. WP

 

[SDSmlf]

Here you go.
https://www.today.com/health/amygdalin-fruit-pits-converted-cyanide-after-eating-t114515

 

[Carbon 6]

As part of my normal daily duties in the synthetic polymer plant I
handled 40 bags of this dicyanamide. On both sides of the bags were
large red warning labels. "Avoid fire or flame." "Do not heat to
decomposition temperature." "Evolves highly toxic fumes of cyanide."

So a an average shot of 80 grains would contain about 5 grains of dicyanamide.
Assuming that the weight of powder was equal to the weight of dicyanamide.
Sounds to me like the difference between standing in a puddle and standing in the ocean. One makes your feet wet, the other makes you drown.

I'm guessing that because a pound of powder contains less than 1 ounce of dicyanamide that it is not considered a health risk. Doing the math, 280000 divided by 420 = that's 1/666th the amount. OMG. 666
Maybe it really is the devils powder. I'm going back to Holy black.

 

[SPQR70AD]

So a an average shot of 80 grains would contain about 5 grains of dicyanamide.
Assuming that the weight of powder was equal to the weight of dicyanamide.
Sounds to me like the difference between standing in a puddle and standing in the ocean. One makes your feet wet, the other makes you drown.

I'm guessing that because a pound of powder contains less than 1 ounce of dicyanamide that it is not considered a health risk. Doing the math, 280000 divided by 420 = that's 1/666th the amount. OMG. 666
Maybe it really is the devils powder. I'm going back to Holy black.

we are all gonna die lol. our society has become so feminized that even the "men" are affected. I know this has nothing to do with pyrodex but my uncle was a plumber for 50 years before they came out with PVC waste pipes. he used big lead pot for the cast iron pipes and soldered all the copper. He lived to 89 after 50 years of using lead. did not even die of any disease just refused to eat

 

[n3wyu]

Our society has become so feminized. Thank you, I thought it was me that was thinking that. The world that I grew up in and worked in for 40 + years is going away. However I will shoot my muzzleloader's, eat a steak, smoke a cigar, drink a beer and just enjoy myself. Moderation I believe is the key. You know one can worry about every little thing, try to eat just right stay away from things that no good for you deprive yourself of things that you enjoy and then get run over by a bus!

 

[dwarner]

Here you go.
https://www.today.com/health/amygdalin-fruit-pits-converted-cyanide-after-eating-t114515

What we really need in all this rumor-mongering is for an industrial chemist or toxicologist to weigh in and set the issue straight with some authority. I possess neither of these qualifications but I might as well add a couple of observations-- Although dicyanamide has two cyanide groups attached to a central nitrogen atom, it is structurally an amide (a diamide), not a cyanide. Cyanimides generally are stable compounds that are noxious and moderately toxic to humans but are not nearly as toxic as the cyanides (from Wikipedia). They are widely used in the chemical industry, particularly in producing pharmaceuticals and fertilizers (the fertilizer forms break down to urea in the soil and are excellent sources of nitrogen). There have been concerns about Pyrodex since its introduction that it could release toxic cyanide during its combustion. But this seems unlikely in a powder charge fired in a gun barrel due to the highly oxygenated combustion environment (produced by the nitrate and perchlorate breakdowns) that should completely oxidize it as well. Even so, the concern is probably well warranted and Pyrodex should never be fired indoors or in areas that lack free clearance of the smoke and fumes.
Sodium benzoate is a benign and widely used food preservative. It is also used commonly in fireworks as a fuel, particularly for whistle mixes. Its role in Pyrodex is probably as a modifier to the overall rate of combustion to more closely match traditional black powder.

 

[SPQR70AD]

What we really need in all this rumor-mongering is for an industrial chemist or toxicologist to weigh in and set the issue straight with some authority. I possess neither of these qualifications but I might as well add a couple of observations-- Although dicyanamide has two cyanide groups attached to a central nitrogen atom, it is structurally an amide (a diamide), not a cyanide. Cyanimides generally are stable compounds that are noxious and moderately toxic to humans but are not nearly as toxic as the cyanides (from Wikipedia). They are widely used in the chemical industry, particularly in producing pharmaceuticals and fertilizers (the fertilizer forms break down to urea in the soil and are excellent sources of nitrogen). There have been concerns about Pyrodex since its introduction that it could release toxic cyanide during its combustion. But this seems unlikely in a powder charge fired in a gun barrel due to the highly oxygenated combustion environment (produced by the nitrate and perchlorate breakdowns) that should completely oxidize it as well. Even so, the concern is probably well warranted and Pyrodex should never be fired indoors or in areas that lack free clearance of the smoke and fumes.
Sodium benzoate is a benign and widely used food preservative. It is also used commonly in fireworks as a fuel, particularly for whistle mixes. Its role in Pyrodex is probably as a modifier to the overall rate of combustion to more closely match traditional black powder.

you don't even need any expert. what it comes down to is some researcher getting paid to come up with a result his paymaster wants like the EPA gets some rats injects them with whatever substance they want to scare people with.they marinate the rats with it until finally one dies or gets a tumor. when you figure the weight of the test rat and how much they injected him with it might work out to a 170 lb man drinking 5 gallons a day of the test product. I have seen this many times

 

[Okie Hog]

in a couple weeks i'll be 81 years old. For 20 of those years i was a US Army EOD guy. Among other big boo boos, i done something dumb and got phosgene gassed.

Spent 30 more years doing the same stuff as a civilian where i got lead poisoning twice while taking serious short cuts while burning hundreds of millions of rounds of small arms ammunition and breathing lead dust. Worked as a military advisor to foreign armies for 7.5 years.

Despite a whole bunch of medical problems i can work eight hours building fence, cutting down cedars or digging ditches. It just takes a day or two to recuperate.

IMO: The biggest threat to human health comes from sugar, especially high fructose corn sugar.

 

[SPQR70AD]

in a couple weeks i'll be 81 years old. For 20 of those years i was a US Army EOD guy. Among other big boo boos, i done something dumb and got phosgene gassed.

Spent 30 more years doing the same stuff as a civilian where i got lead poisoning twice while taking serious short cuts while burning hundreds of millions of rounds of small arms ammunition and breathing lead dust. Worked as a military advisor to foreign armies for 7.5 years.

Despite a whole bunch of medical problems i can work eight hours building fence, cutting down cedars or digging ditches. It just takes a day or two to recuperate.

IMO: The biggest threat to human health comes from sugar, especially high fructose corn sugar.

you are an amazing man and proof that all these doomsday rants are just a pile of bull manure. to show how the lead scare started I lived in NYC and around mid 60's they forced integrated the schools so blacks would get a better education. it did not work and their scores were bad so they came out with a fairy tale excuse saying black kids ate lead paint chips off window sill with stunted their brain growth. even then people were to cowardly to say how all other races of kids did not eat paint chips. that started the lead scare industry and you can connect it to every other product scam. US now has NO lead smelting businesses. all ruined by the EPA

 

[n3wyu]

Good point. My house was built in 1840 , I grew up in this house and the paint in it is lead paint. But I never remember eating lead paint chips. T bone steaks, pot roast fried chicken and all the fixings. I never said hold on ma how about a bowl of paint chips. If you watch the news they are always coming up with something thats bad for you then next week it will be good. Just like coffee, I remember the news media reporting that coffee was bad,a couple of weeks later they said don't throw your coffee cup away yet. I think it's a game they play to see how many people they can lead around by the nose.lol Not Me

 

[Bobby44]

Good point. My house was built in 1840 , I grew up in this house and the paint in it is lead paint. But I never remember eating lead paint chips. T bone steaks, pot roast fried chicken and all the fixings. I never said hold on ma how about a bowl of paint chips. If you watch the news they are always coming up with something thats bad for you then next week it will be good. Just like coffee, I remember the news media reporting that coffee was bad,a couple of weeks later they said don't throw your coffee cup away yet. I think it's a game they play to see how many people they can lead around by the nose.lol Not Me

Dog gone it. The EPA folks (and others) are not doing it intentionally. It is all an accident because they have no idea of what they speak. Best advise.... use your own good sense.

 

[David Veale]

Dog gone it. The EPA folks (and others) are not doing it intentionally. It is all an accident because they have no idea of what they speak. Best advise.... use your own good sense.

Lead poisoning isn't a fabrication, and you don't have to intentionally "eat" the paint to get poisoning. The biggest risk is to kids because it inhibits brain development. A kid that ingests the equivalent of a pinky-fingernail sized chip (maybe they get paint dust on their hands a few times and don't wash before eating a sandwich?) will have enough lead in their blood to show a significant loss of IQ. A good friend of mine and his wife remodeled an 1870's house with their young daughter around, and didn't know enough to take the lead paint seriously at the time. A little while later their daughter was having behavioral issues. Their doctor ran a blood test, finding that her lead levels were sky high. She's been on psychoactive meds ever since, and is still a little "off".

Another coworker of mine has a father who was a plumber in the era of lead pipes & solder. According to her, he's now "crazy as a bat" as a result. One of the first mass shootings I remember was at a McDonald's in California sometime in the early 80's. The shooter there was believed to be off his rocker as a result of workplace lead poisoning if you look it up.