Well,I'm 42 and have been shooting MLs for about 15 years.I am chagrined to see that CVA stopped production of all traditional Muzzle loaders and I hate the looks of an in-line.I guess most people prefer the convience of using primers and pellets to caps(or flints)and bp or Pyrodex.Not me to me the looks of a gun are as important as the functionality of it.I'll take a tradational Hawken over a butt-ugly in-line anytime.
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
gun prices
- Thread starter oldmaster
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Jac Spring
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2007
- Messages
- 376
- Reaction score
- 1
MinnieBall1 said:
Wow - surely there are some other clubs with muzzle loader matches and such in the area? And as far as scouts goes - I'm surprised that no one has taken you up on it - you do have to be an NRA certified instructor to work with boy scouts though - that might be the issue? If you really like working with kids, sign-on as an assistant scout master with a local troop, or contact the council office - they may know of a troop looking for help. I'm a scoutmaster here in Texas and just got NRA certified this past weekend. Looking forward to shooting my flint lock with the boys :grin:
Guest
Some thoughts trying to bring some logic in it:
I don't know a single hunter who owns more than ONE inliner or want another one. I never saw someone shooting an InL at our club with 700+ members. I don't know a single traditional ML'er who owns less than 3 flintlocks/matchlocks/percussion locks and EVERY ONE of them wants to have more!
So, you US manufacturers (or "assemblists") abandon the product-line with the most prospects for the future?
I think its the same ignorance that Colt and S&W showed, leaving the business for Italian, Spanish, Turk, and India entrepreneurs.
In my opinion, the traditional ML'ers are one of the most loyal people to the hobby.
I don't know a single hunter who owns more than ONE inliner or want another one. I never saw someone shooting an InL at our club with 700+ members. I don't know a single traditional ML'er who owns less than 3 flintlocks/matchlocks/percussion locks and EVERY ONE of them wants to have more!
So, you US manufacturers (or "assemblists") abandon the product-line with the most prospects for the future?
I think its the same ignorance that Colt and S&W showed, leaving the business for Italian, Spanish, Turk, and India entrepreneurs.
In my opinion, the traditional ML'ers are one of the most loyal people to the hobby.
RedFeather
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2005
- Messages
- 1,306
- Reaction score
- 42
Thought I replied to this, twice. Maybe another thread? Well, third time's a charm.
There's two or three sides to the decline in "traditional" muzzle loaders as sold in today's market. (I'm talking off the rack and not custom guns.)
First, a lot of the early, traditional guns were imports from countries where the US dollar had strong buying power. That situation has now reversed. Sometime in the late 90's the prices of Italian guns began taking off and have never really looked back. I like the Tryon rifle, but won't spend over $1,000 for a new "deluxe" model, thank you.
Second, I think that the BP community was a bit small compared to gun owners, as a whole. Maybe the market for traditional guns had become saturated and companies like T/C and CVA, along with importers like Navy Arms and Dixie, found they could only do so much volume. Along comes the in-line and a whole new market niche opens up. One that is potentially bigger. So production numbers favor the in-lines over the traditional designs, which now suffer sales loss to the "latest thing".
Third, in-lines are really pretty cheap to make. They have to be if CVA can retail some of their latest stuff for $150 and still make a profit. So the domestic manufacturers lose sight of what made them standouts in the first place, shiftingg practically all of their emphasis on the new generation guns and powders/bullets. It's a lot like golf, really. Not many companies making tour blades these days when everyone wants perimeter weighted designs that make the game "easier". Ditto fishing gear. It's easy for a marketer to convince people to "step up" to "cutting edge technology", along with all the doo-dads that go along with it. For example, look at the "evolution" of in-line ignition systems. First there was standard percussion cap, then primers, then improved (210?) primers. Got a regular breech? Let me "upgrade" you to a 3-way combo breech. Oh, Lord, how the money rolls in. Meanwhile, Mr. Hawkin's sales are down, again, so we had better turn him out to pasture.
Fortunately, there were enough people in the 70's, 80's and 90's who bought a T/C Hawken or CVA Mountain Rifle, shot it once upon a time, then put it away. Otherwise, we'ld all be broke! :haha:
There's two or three sides to the decline in "traditional" muzzle loaders as sold in today's market. (I'm talking off the rack and not custom guns.)
First, a lot of the early, traditional guns were imports from countries where the US dollar had strong buying power. That situation has now reversed. Sometime in the late 90's the prices of Italian guns began taking off and have never really looked back. I like the Tryon rifle, but won't spend over $1,000 for a new "deluxe" model, thank you.
Second, I think that the BP community was a bit small compared to gun owners, as a whole. Maybe the market for traditional guns had become saturated and companies like T/C and CVA, along with importers like Navy Arms and Dixie, found they could only do so much volume. Along comes the in-line and a whole new market niche opens up. One that is potentially bigger. So production numbers favor the in-lines over the traditional designs, which now suffer sales loss to the "latest thing".
Third, in-lines are really pretty cheap to make. They have to be if CVA can retail some of their latest stuff for $150 and still make a profit. So the domestic manufacturers lose sight of what made them standouts in the first place, shiftingg practically all of their emphasis on the new generation guns and powders/bullets. It's a lot like golf, really. Not many companies making tour blades these days when everyone wants perimeter weighted designs that make the game "easier". Ditto fishing gear. It's easy for a marketer to convince people to "step up" to "cutting edge technology", along with all the doo-dads that go along with it. For example, look at the "evolution" of in-line ignition systems. First there was standard percussion cap, then primers, then improved (210?) primers. Got a regular breech? Let me "upgrade" you to a 3-way combo breech. Oh, Lord, how the money rolls in. Meanwhile, Mr. Hawkin's sales are down, again, so we had better turn him out to pasture.
Fortunately, there were enough people in the 70's, 80's and 90's who bought a T/C Hawken or CVA Mountain Rifle, shot it once upon a time, then put it away. Otherwise, we'ld all be broke! :haha:
Im 28 here, Young but busted up and worn in some.
I have been shooting all my life, switched to flintlocks 3 years ago, "laws are better less orwellian"
Now I am addicted.
And I am not the only one I think.
It is places like this site that give the information to those just starting out, where else on the internet can you find a group of folk with such positive spirit with a heap of knoledge and decency?
No where I have found.
I have been shooting all my life, switched to flintlocks 3 years ago, "laws are better less orwellian"
Now I am addicted.
And I am not the only one I think.
It is places like this site that give the information to those just starting out, where else on the internet can you find a group of folk with such positive spirit with a heap of knoledge and decency?
No where I have found.
Guest
amen i put my muzzies down for about a year due to work and medical reasons and when i came back the first place icame was here where all the info is. I tried a few otther sights and didnt feel the info was correct so bravo to you guys. and i just cant help taking in infor from fellow TEXANS whether i am home or not :rotf:
slamfire, there will be a gun show this weekend in Lenoir City about 20 minutes south of Knoxville with about 80 tables.They are tying to ressurect the old Smoky Mountain Gun Collectors Club show.I hope you can make it.
Tom Patton
Tom Patton
PanzerOfJustice
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2005
- Messages
- 16
- Reaction score
- 0
I've got you all bet I'm 20!
From another gun forum filled with young whippersnappers like myself, I think the trend is not towards traditional muzzleloaders. Why spend over 300 dollars on a weapon that takes a minute to load when you can be a Mosin Nagent and 1000 rounds for 200 dollars?
Another myth is that traditional designs are unreliable. I think the traditional market has leveled out, and that while other companies are getting out of the traditional business, others are growing.
From another gun forum filled with young whippersnappers like myself, I think the trend is not towards traditional muzzleloaders. Why spend over 300 dollars on a weapon that takes a minute to load when you can be a Mosin Nagent and 1000 rounds for 200 dollars?
Another myth is that traditional designs are unreliable. I think the traditional market has leveled out, and that while other companies are getting out of the traditional business, others are growing.
3 stinky dogs
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2005
- Messages
- 475
- Reaction score
- 1
Compare traditional muzzle loading to traditional archery. About two years ago to get a good boring production bow from the big company's would run you $500 +- bucks, And a custom could get $1,000 +. You could find good bows at garage sales, Auction sites etc, etc. Most folks shot the compound which got as good as it will ever get, I mean after all, that arrow is only going to go so fast . Once Joe archer got this threw his head the pendulum started swinging the other way. I feel the same thing will happen with the muzzle loader. Prices wont change much I don't think as they don't seem so unreasonable. About the only thing I could say needs improvement are the warenty and customer services of some of the gun makers and distributor's. Also the industry needs some one to market Trad guns better. Maybe get Trad Barta of some one like him to start a hunting show with trad gear. Thats my two cents, sorey for being so long winded.
arcticap
54 Cal.
I know the topic is about the U.S. traditional ML'er market, but it shouldn't be ignored that traditional muzzle loading is truely a world wide sport, and just because it may be experiencing low or negative growth domestically, the world wide trend can be viewed much differently. In some of the European countries muzzle loading is huge and there is no real competition from modern designs either. In Eastern Europe muzzle loading is growing by leaps and bounds because of how hard it is to get licensed to shoot modern guns and the freedom to shoot BP is relatively new. So black powder guns are often the first choice of a good portion of the population of the world outside of the U.S.
This should make people feel good about the overall future of the sport despite the obvious trend here.
So let's not lose sight of the status of the sport world wide. I think it's actually growing, especially when the cap & ball revolver market is taken into consideration! :thumbsup:
This should make people feel good about the overall future of the sport despite the obvious trend here.
So let's not lose sight of the status of the sport world wide. I think it's actually growing, especially when the cap & ball revolver market is taken into consideration! :thumbsup:
In Germany we have meanwhile many cap and ball revovler competition shooters, about 20000. The ML scene has about 60000 shooters, number is now again raising because of the strengthend gun law. Single shot ML are further on free to get. As I can tell from my own point of expirience in Czech Republik and Poland ML shooting is also growing.
Most people even the younger don't understand that shooting is not the only point when handling guns. Especially when shooting ML you do a huge part of tradition. And tradition is not the case of our youth, tradition is not "in".They only want have fun, and fun in their eyes can only be get with a fast shooting and reloading weapon like automatic pistols or repeating rifles. A ML is not fun, takes too long to load, then only one shot, much smoke, dirty hands, dirty rifle, much cleaning, etc. But this can be changed when it is possible to change the behaviour. And this has to be done by guys like we are. Not only on the forum but also outside in the clubs and at the meetings. I started in 2005, had about 5 years ML practice, to built up a regional group as a section of the german "Blachpowder Initiative". Now, nearly two years later I have 14 members, 11 of them are complete newbies and we have the the placet that it is political correct to hunt with ML in GE.
Most people even the younger don't understand that shooting is not the only point when handling guns. Especially when shooting ML you do a huge part of tradition. And tradition is not the case of our youth, tradition is not "in".They only want have fun, and fun in their eyes can only be get with a fast shooting and reloading weapon like automatic pistols or repeating rifles. A ML is not fun, takes too long to load, then only one shot, much smoke, dirty hands, dirty rifle, much cleaning, etc. But this can be changed when it is possible to change the behaviour. And this has to be done by guys like we are. Not only on the forum but also outside in the clubs and at the meetings. I started in 2005, had about 5 years ML practice, to built up a regional group as a section of the german "Blachpowder Initiative". Now, nearly two years later I have 14 members, 11 of them are complete newbies and we have the the placet that it is political correct to hunt with ML in GE.
To the last 2 posters, youv sure hit this one on the head, maybe the USA is just to big and to young as a country to have the history to want to do like over in "lets say Swiss" (because my lil brother just came back and got some pics for me) It seems after church on Sundays whole towns turn out to shoot and watch guys shoot. from 8 to 80 they are shooting,love one pic of a guy maybe 70 with 4 leaf clover in mouth while he shoots a org at some target i cant see. We are doing ourselfs in here except the gang here. Fred :hatsoff: (try and think of something like Friendship on a smaller scale in every town here but every weekend)
The original start of this was pricing and there has been some interesting insight into muzzle loading here and in Europe and it's priciing. I really find the European input fasinating as we get so caught up in what we know.
I checked some different sites and found Lyman GPR running from $370 to $479 for the same rifle.
T/C Hawken ran from $499 to $571. Perdersoli Tryon $820/$1120 and the Rocky Mountain Hawken $750/$1100 depending on the wood.
I have 3 questions:
1. Why so much disparity in pricing on Lyman
and T/C between suppliers?
2. Why is Pedersoli so much higher when the
Euro is mentioned and Lyman is made in Europe
and does not reflect the Euro as much?
3. How many dollars it too many dollars to spend
for a production rifle?
On Number 3, it seems that somewhere around $550 or so, people start backing off spending more than this amount. If you average the cost of a rifle out over 10 years, a $1000 rifle is not a lot of money. I have a feeling it's the initial outlay of money.
RDE
I checked some different sites and found Lyman GPR running from $370 to $479 for the same rifle.
T/C Hawken ran from $499 to $571. Perdersoli Tryon $820/$1120 and the Rocky Mountain Hawken $750/$1100 depending on the wood.
I have 3 questions:
1. Why so much disparity in pricing on Lyman
and T/C between suppliers?
2. Why is Pedersoli so much higher when the
Euro is mentioned and Lyman is made in Europe
and does not reflect the Euro as much?
3. How many dollars it too many dollars to spend
for a production rifle?
On Number 3, it seems that somewhere around $550 or so, people start backing off spending more than this amount. If you average the cost of a rifle out over 10 years, a $1000 rifle is not a lot of money. I have a feeling it's the initial outlay of money.
RDE
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
Most people have to pay their bills out of current resources. Saving up for years is something you have to do as a kid, while you convince the parents you are responsible enough to have a gun. Once you become an adult, guns become " extras ", and a major committment of discretionary spending. i can remember when spending more than $100 for a gun would give most men pause, but then, I am getting older.
redriverclerk
36 Cal.
- Joined
- May 22, 2005
- Messages
- 87
- Reaction score
- 0
There are a few websites where Lyman GPR kits are as low as $269.00. If you like to assemble your own, that's pretty cheap for a GPR.
Guest
I think you can tell a lot about someone
by the type of firearm they use.
In today's society people want something that is easy to use and doesn't require a lot of effort.
I have a friend that uses in-lines just to be able to hunt during ml season. He doesn't really care about M/L tradition. He just wants a way of staying legal so he can extend the hunting season for himself during M/L season.
Someone that prefers Traditional Muzzle loading is also making a statement.
They want a challenge when they hunt. They have to develop skills and hunting techniques.
They want to be self sufficient,( give me powder and lead and I'm on my way).
They must develop the skills of the frontiersman and the mountain man,( hard but very rewarding).
In today's society only a very few men will choose the M/L way. Simply because it is harder to do.
by the type of firearm they use.
In today's society people want something that is easy to use and doesn't require a lot of effort.
I have a friend that uses in-lines just to be able to hunt during ml season. He doesn't really care about M/L tradition. He just wants a way of staying legal so he can extend the hunting season for himself during M/L season.
Someone that prefers Traditional Muzzle loading is also making a statement.
They want a challenge when they hunt. They have to develop skills and hunting techniques.
They want to be self sufficient,( give me powder and lead and I'm on my way).
They must develop the skills of the frontiersman and the mountain man,( hard but very rewarding).
In today's society only a very few men will choose the M/L way. Simply because it is harder to do.
cowpoke1955
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2006
- Messages
- 2,090
- Reaction score
- 6
Richard,
I've been asking the same questions. Nobody has been able to answer them. Places like Cabela's and Dixie have sky rocketed and Pedersolis are off the scale. Everyone says it's the Euro Dollar. I think it's a bunch of bull! Check the places mentioned above for their price of Lyman. Now check DNR Sports and Midsouth Shooters. Exact same rifle or kit. As long as the new guys can get a good rifle for a very affordable price, I guess that's all that matters. Keeps the sport alive.
I've been asking the same questions. Nobody has been able to answer them. Places like Cabela's and Dixie have sky rocketed and Pedersolis are off the scale. Everyone says it's the Euro Dollar. I think it's a bunch of bull! Check the places mentioned above for their price of Lyman. Now check DNR Sports and Midsouth Shooters. Exact same rifle or kit. As long as the new guys can get a good rifle for a very affordable price, I guess that's all that matters. Keeps the sport alive.
Guest
Consider other forms of recreation. People don't bat an eye at spending $7000-$8000 on a new quad. And 4 years later, it's worth $3000. Buy a custom rifle like something Mike brooks makes for say $3000 and in 4 years it's worth $2500 and in 5 more years it's worth $3500. Not to mention that it will handle WAY better than any $500 factory gun and will increase your enjoyment in the sport. While it's true that alot of shooters got their feet wet with the cheap factory guns, many got soured on the sport by starting out with the cheapest of the cheap. Of course just becaue a custom gun is a custom doesn't make it good. There are GOOD custom builders and there are POOR custom builders. Just like there are good (for the money) factory guns and there are manure (for any money) factory guns. The price doesn't matter, it's the VALUE that counts. I see no issue with someone spending $3000 on their first rifle provided it's actually worth $3000. I you decide to abandon the sport, sell it and you'll recoup most if not all of your investment. May even MAKE money on it. Some will say "Oh sure, where am I going to get $3000 for a gun????". Well, true, some can't afford it, most don't WANT to afford it. I know people that wouldn't DREAM of spending $2000-$3000 for a good custom rifle but they spend $1500 a year on smokes, paid $3000 extra for power windows, locks and leather seats in their pick-up and have a $8000 quad and $13,000 snowmobile in the shed. Usually have a $25,000 5th wheel in the driveway too. But when it comes to ML's they don't want to spend more than $250??????? Now before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I'm not refering to anyone in particular so please, don't anyone feel you have to justify your position. That's not what this post is about. Just giving y'all somethinmg to think about. I don't think that most people can't afford to buy quality, they just CHOOSE to spend their money somewhere else.
Guest
like food and lodging. :hatsoff:
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
