Halfstock, Flintlock Hawkens??

[rich pierce]

The only evidence there weren’t nuclear bombs in the arsenal of the Romans is that we haven’t uncovered it yet. The argument that “you can’t prove it didn’t exist” is the weakest of arguments.

I don’t buy that every J&S Hawken was a custom piece ordered to spec by the customer. Some were.
The most anybody can say about J&S flintlock halfstock rifles is “no proof but maybe a couple were made.”

 

[Grenadier1758]

@kansas_volunteer, actually Jake Hawken was in St. Louis first. Jake was in partnership with James Lakenan for several years even after Sam Hawken moved to St. Louis and set up his own gunsmith business. At the time, 1810 to about 1825, the bulk of the gun trade business appears to have been repair and few few firearms are documented as being built. Of course there is Ashley's rifle in 1823. There is no record of the lock only the caliber of 0.63. By the 1830's the Hawken brothers were well established as making top of the line rifles. As stated in other posts, less expensive flint lock rifles were available, but the Hawken brothers had enough business that they could focus on the production of percussion lock rifles and shotguns. They were making the larger caliber rifles for the plains and also smaller caliber rifles for the local hunters. It is true that the Hawken brothers did make rifles with locks that had started out as flint locks modified for use as percussion locks, there is little evidence that the rifle barrel was originally breeched for a flint lock.

 

[nkbj]

The Romans? Those guys couldn't even build a pyramid. Now a half stock flinter Hawken, it took guys in New Hampshire to do that but even they missed out on making the rifles a proper .62 caliber.

 

[brazosland]

The only evidence there weren’t nuclear bombs in the arsenal of the Romans is that we haven’t uncovered it yet. The argument that “you can’t prove it didn’t exist” is the weakest of arguments.

I don’t buy that every J&S Hawken was a custom piece ordered to spec by the customer. Some were.
The most anybody can say about J&S flintlock halfstock rifles is “no proof but maybe a couple were made.”

But if the Carthaginians had nukes, and the Germanic tribes were found to have had SLBMs in the North Sea, doesn’t it make sense that the Romans would have built at least a few Nike’s? Or even a cruise missile or two?

I am always amazed at the energy this subject generates. Everyone in the rifle business on this continent and in Europe had been making, or had been exposed to the making of, Halfstock rifles for over 30 years by 1830. In some cases much longer.

But, by God, the Hawken brothers sure never made one! Wouldn’t even lower themselves to consider it!

 

[tenngun]

Those are all good points. Personally I doubt if the good brothers or Sam himself built a flint lock hall stock.
What would they have said to someone that wanted one?
Would any one want one?
Most early rifles in America were made in .50+, but if you get an early Lancaster in .45 or .40 no one pops off a response that such guns didn’t exist.
I went to a 1812 event as a civilian. My short coat has pewter ARW style buttons on it. I was 60 at the time, I would have been alive during the war, and reasoned you don’t throw out expensive buttons cause you coat is worn out. The guy putting on the event was going to reject me from the event based on those buttons, but said nothing about the young man with a cut off second model bess with the forestock ball sanded off and a dragon trade gun serpent side plate
For years the only 1803 you could get was in .58 with minnie ball rifeling. I bet there is more then one still being shot today.
I bet if you go to a big F& I event you may see a lot of second Model Besses there and more then one ‘77 charley.
Should we say Hawken rifle the gun that comes to mind is the Jim Bridger or Kit Carson rifle. Big bore half stock iron mounted plains gun. When you hear Hawken do you think of a delicate .36 silver and brass mounted rifle in Ohio style with big late Lancaster style patch box?
No? Is that not a Hawken rifle too, J&S built at least one of those.
Yet when someone has a flint half stock Hawken, well then something unpleasant seems to hit the ventilation devices.... I wonder why.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Thanks for setting me straight Grenadier. I was working from memory. I do recall the J&S Hawken shop did more than make and sell rifles.

Both brothers had exposure to half-stock flintlocks before moving to St. Louis, so the idea was already planted in their heads.

It's my recollection seven known Hawken flintlocks survive, all full stocks, but the number may be wrong. The correct number is certainly a single digit. We must not generalize from the particular.

Rich Pierce your Roman example is just cockamammie.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

If after working your traplines for a year or whatever time you decided to get a new or newer gun and had saved your hard earned money to buy it when you put it on the counter, would you ask for the latest or the most tried and true, in your opinion? I wonder....!

 

[Pete G]

If you're making one particular style and selling all you could make, would you stop and make another style? I know I would not, and I doubt anyone else would.

 

[Pete G]

Rich Pierce your Roman example is just cockamammie.

Which shows just how silly the "lack of proof" argument is.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I am not a reenactor, but I am a hard-core history buff. I like muzzle-loaders, and appreciate both function and authenticity. As an outsider looking in, I would think reenactors and participants in living-history events would go to some effort to present an accurate portrayal of the past, and I am confident that most do. There will inevitably be some gaps in the fund of knowledge with regard to the past. I think people try to fill in the gaps using logic and "informed speculation" (thank you Farley Mowat, for coining that term). There are some potential traps there.

Half-stocked flintlock "Hawken" styled rifles are being built now. I've seen images of them. This question actually comes up fairly frequently on forums like this. Well-made examples are nice looking guns that appear practical and functional. I have no problem with that. The issue is when these rifles are presented to neophytes or the general public as authentic reconstructions of original rifles... A representation that simply can't be verified. Not yet, anyway. Not until an original example or artifact, a written description, or a painting or drawing that depicts one shows up. To my knowledge, nothing has turned up yet to verify the existence of a half-stocked flintlock Hawken. We could say they were "used up," but there are lots of actual guns, images, and written descriptions of other guns from "the Hawken Era," and earlier, that do exist, that were not "used up." Including half-stocked flintlock rifles... Just not Hawken half-stocked flintlock rifles.

So, as one who is interested in actual events from history, I would not like to see a half-stocked flintlock "Hawken replica" presented as an example of an artifact that actually existed in the past, when we can't say that it did. Rex Norman once wrote that the modern-day rendezvous "... is like a trip in a faulty time machine." I think this is the sort of thing he was talking about. However, if you just want one to shoot, and you present it to interested but ignorant individuals as a rifle based on speculation, I have no problem with it. Meanwhile, let's keep looking... Read the old books, go back and take a close look at those old paintings and drawings by Miller, Bingham, Deas, Catlin, Kurz, and others who were actually there, and keep looking for surviving examples. I try to keep my eyes open for this sort of thing, and I hope others do the same.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Walkingeagle]

I found this painting in a Parks Canada document around the Upper Athabasca Valley, specifically Jasper House. It appears this fellow has a half stock flintlock...
Walk

 

[tenngun]

There were plenty of half stock flintlocks made between cr 1800 and the end of the flint era. Did the brothers Hawken or Sam after Jakes death make any?
I doubt they did, but if you want a half stock flint rifle precedents abound.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I made a few mistakes in my previous post. Jake came to St. Louis in 1819. He was in partnership with James Lakenan and they shared a cabin until 1825. Jacob Hawken worked at Harper's Ferry from 1808 until 1818. Sam arrived in St. Louis in 1822. They were familiar with the half stock relatively large caliber (1/2 ounce ball) rifles built for the U. S. States Army and the 69 caliber (1 ounce ball) smoothbores built in 1812.

I find this article on the General Ashley rifle, allegedly the first rifle built by J. and S. Hawken and the attempt to recreate it.

The Ashley Hawken Part I - Muzzle Blasts Archives — The NMLRA

 

[Wild Tim]

If after working your traplines for a year or whatever time you decided to get a new or newer gun and had saved your hard earned money to buy it when you put it on the counter, would you ask for the latest or the most tried and true, in your opinion? I wonder....!

I would suggest that you would get the latest. My evidence is the rising popularity of the precision style rifles that are gaining popularity today while the old school sporter styles sit on the shelves or sell cheaper. People see improvement and want it, or just want the new. Human nature.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I found this painting in a Parks Canada document around the Upper Athabasca Valley, specifically Jasper House. It appears this fellow has a half stock flintlock...
WalkView attachment 56138View attachment 56139

That's a great image, WalkingEagle! That's the kind of thing we want to look for.

The rifle (or gun) is unquestionably a half-stocked flintlock, and is that a scroll on the trigger guard grip rail that I see, or is it a leaf on the shrub behind it? I do see a single trigger, a "baluster" wrist, and a relatively flat buttplate, all consistent with British sporting rifles of the day, which sometimes also had "Hawken-esque" scrolls on the end of the trigger guard grip rail. Rindisbacher is known for his paintings of life in Canada, especially in the Red River country, all of which was the domain of the Hudson's Bay Company, which was extremely protective of its territory. This would support the belief that the man in the image is holding a British arm rather than a Hawken or any other type of American-made firearm. But, it is without doubt a flintlock half-stock.

Good find!

Notchy Bob

 

[brazosland]

I made a few mistakes in my previous post. Jake came to St. Louis in 1819. He was in partnership with James Lakenan and they shared a cabin until 1825. Jacob Hawken worked at Harper's Ferry from 1808 until 1818. Sam arrived in St. Louis in 1822. They were familiar with the half stock relatively large caliber (1/2 ounce ball) rifles built for the U. S. States Army and the 69 caliber (1 ounce ball) smoothbores built in 1812.

I find this article on the General Ashley rifle, allegedly the first rifle built by J. and S. Hawken and the attempt to recreate it.

The Ashley Hawken Part I - Muzzle Blasts Archives — The NMLRA

Great article. Thank you for posting that.

I must concede that I have a bit of bias in this debate...a tapered barrel, .62 caliber bias, to be exact. Perhaps I should recuse myself.

 

[rich pierce]

The thing that perplexes me most in this oft-revisited and debated topic is the enthusiasm for a speculative gun. I can’t pretend to understand the appeal of a speculative gun when there are dozens of terrific alternatives. Maybe it’s based on wanting something special or unique. Maybe enthusiasts want a Hawken rifle, prefer flintlocks or like the early 1820s era, and find fullstock Hawken rifles don’t ring their bell. Maybe some enthusiasts like having something that proves nobody can tell them what is historically appropriate. No idea. Can someone share why a flintlock, halfstock Hawken rifle appeals to them?

 

[Rudyard]

'A faulty time machine ' I like that .1640 to 1840 NA Continent more or less, But they where fun anyway & I did enough .Of SCA events one regular R vous follower leather peddler Monterino remarked "You think We have our oars out of the water?" " These guys (SCA) Really have their oars out of the water !" He did many events , I did one SCA one once, he was assuredly correct. But they had fun. .Not to question Notchy Bobs views as a researcher he is undoubtabley correct. I once made a full stock flint Hawken & a cap one half stock. But think of them as tools bit like picks & shovels. Certainly not sharing Baird's dreams . But the customer is always right . Even if he's wrong .Is'nt there a drum & nipple Hawken in the Smithsonian? .Not that I follow such affairs .
Rudyard

 

[tenngun]

I don’t like half stocks so that’s a personal taste. I do like dodging flint chips , and smoke in the face.
Now beat me with my ramrod till I cry surrender, but Hawkens, full or half just don’t appeal to me. They were great guns for sure, but I don’t think they were special. And the plains guns were not real easy on the eye. There were lots of gunsmiths who turned out a fine product every bit on a-par with Hawkens IMHO.
Howsomever, lots of folks think they’re great, and want one. But like that dodging flint chips and smoke in the face too.
Track of the Wolf sells parts and kits and you can turn out some fine stuff from them.
They do sell TFC,NWG and eighteenth century fowling guns with rifles barrels.
Why? Because some folk like the looks and want a rifle.
Importers from India sell Napoleonic war military rifles and Civil War guns in smoothbore. Guns that should be rifled, why?
Well that’s an import thing to skirt some laws, but....
Perdisoli makes a trade gun that’s close to a NWG. Would it cost more if they copied it right? I can’t see how. But there you go.
What’s the appeal of flint half stock Hawkens. What’s the appeal of fruit cake and haggis? But I like both.

 

[brazosland]

The thing that perplexes me most in this oft-revisited and debated topic is the enthusiasm for a speculative gun. I can’t pretend to understand the appeal of a speculative gun when there are dozens of terrific alternatives. Maybe it’s based on wanting something special or unique. Maybe enthusiasts want a Hawken rifle, prefer flintlocks or like the early 1820s era, and find fullstock Hawken rifles don’t ring their bell. Maybe some enthusiasts like having something that proves nobody can tell them what is historically appropriate. No idea. Can someone share why a flintlock, halfstock Hawken rifle appeals to them?

I have a full stock percussion gun nearly identical to the one pictured above. Tapered barrel .62 also. It’s my favorite rifle, hands down.

But this flint halfstock appeals to me because it seems so...right. It’s a hair lighter and balances better. It just seems to be the epitome of what modern technology would have brought to the frontier in the late 1820s.

I have a Lancaster trade gun in .54 and a Leman .58, both full stock and both percussion. Mid to late 1830ish guns at the earliest. Cheap to build and no frills. The flint version of those guns was the same cheap and quick to build.

The Hawkens were not young amateurs. And they were right on the front lines, so to speak, dealing with the user of the gun directly. I don’t see why they wouldn’t have made a more forward thinking gun that brought the best features to the table.

No one in St Louis would toss an English sporting rifle in the river for having a half stock, would they? I think not.

To me it seems a more natural progression of art and technology given the long history of half stocks to go from full/flint, to half/flint to half/percussion. Full/percussion would be made more cheaply and for those who desired that style...of which their were likely many.

But dismissing out of hand that they made any based solely and completely on “we don’t see one anywhere” just seems to not pass the reasonableness test.

I get it, history, science, evidence etc. All the pipe smoking experts will tell us what can’t be because they can’t hold it under a magnifying glass in the professors lounge at Princeton...but it just doesn’t make sense that the Hawken brothers ignored so much of what was going on around them and didn’t offer a premium product.

That, and my rifle just looks damn cool...is enough for me!