Hall breech loading flint lock? (pics)

[Jackman]

Looking for info on Hall breech loading flint locks.

The Hall in the pics is mine, its a family hand me down I don't know a thing about it, any info is appreciated.

Some questions I have,

1, Would you fire this old piece or is it too valuable to shoot?

2, the ramrod has a threaded end is this correct or a mismatch?

3, What does the bullet look like for this Hall?

4, on the stock just above the trigger guard is a very slight imprint I can not read it, its oval in shape, any ideas what the imprint is?

5, Anyone want to gander a value? Its not for sale just curious what it might be worth.


Thanks all!

?

 

[Trench]

I believe the rifle fired a round ball. There are a couple of other Hall rifle owners on this site, Buck Connor being one of them. I wouldn't shoot this piece of history. I'd consider it retired. Other than the top cock jaw, it looks to be in great condition on the outside!!

Value can be in the $ thousands. Don't let her go!

 

[Jim Blair]

WOW :shocked2: That's about as nice an orginal Hall's rifle as I've seen.It's a contract model by North from the breech markings,North made aprox.5700 of them on contract between 1830-1836.They will bring a little more than a Harper's Ferry made during the same period.

Original period ammunition called for a .525 round ball with a 100gr.charge of musket powder which included the priming charge in the total weight specified.

The mark above the trigger is the inspectors mark.Look on the barrel for a similiar set of initials.Possibly NWP for Nahun W Patch,he was one of the government inspectors at North in that period.

 

[Jackman]

I believe the rifle fired a round ball. There are a couple of other Hall rifle owners on this site, Buck Connor being one of them. I wouldn't shoot this piece of history. I'd consider it retired. Other than the top cock jaw, it looks to be in great condition on the outside!!

Value can be in the $ thousands. Don't let her go!

I do have the cock vise and the threaded bolt that holds the vise , the threaded bolt is broken in half from being dry fired when we were kids, Dad was PO'ed on that one...



I was planing to fire it at 1/2 charge as a protection , maybe I will not fire it I hope to get form feedback on shooting this old piece


Thanks for thr reply!

 

[Jackman]

WOW :shocked2: That's about as nice an orginal Hall's rifle as I've seen.It's a contract model by North from the breech markings,North made aprox.5700 of them on contract between 1830-1836.They will bring a little more than a Harper's Ferry made during the same period.

Original period ammunition called for a .525 round ball with a 100gr.charge of musket powder which included the priming charge in the total weight specified.

The mark above the trigger is the inspectors mark.Look on the barrel for a similiar set of initials.Possibly NWP for Nahun W Patch,he was one of the government inspectors at North in that period.

Thanks good info :thumbsup: the imprint that I can barely see probaly says NWP in a script form I did not want to guess that but with your info I believe that is what I am seeing.

I alway asumed this fired a mini ball and that it was a smooth bore but this from has educated me a tad and I know see the rifling in the bore:shocked2:, that's why I was wondering what the bullet looked like..

I do not see any initials on the barrel but I do have a slight rust issue the metal is dark so the initials may be there but unseen. Any ideas how to get the rust off the metal surfaces?

Thanks for the reply!

 

[roundball]

Here's a lot of info on it... .54cal/.535" ball, etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1819_Hall_rifle

http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museu...model-1819-breechloading-flintlock-rifle.aspx

 

If memory serves me correctly -'cause I don't have the book at hand...
John C. Fremont had 4000 Halls rifled for use of some Union Army units in the Kansas/Missouri area at the beginning of the Civil War. I would think they were all percussion, but some flint rifles might have slipped through. At any rate, just because they went out the door smooth bored doesn't mean they stayed that way.

 

[matt denison]

WOW !

Nice piece.

:bow: :thumbsup:

 

[jdkerstetter]

Wow, nice gun. You are very fortunate to have it.

If you are set on firing it, just to say you did, I would have it checked out by a competent authority first. Just too many unknown variables and it is worth a considerable amount both monetarily and historically.

Don't buy into all that manure they spew on "Pawn Stars" about it being worth more if it shoots. That makes me shake my head and laugh everytime I hear it. There are almost always ways to tell if a gun can shoot without firing it.

Enjoy your gun. It's nice to own an actual piece of history. J.D.

 

[Jackman]

Thank you all I really like this info :thumbsup: , the wiki page awsome, and the possibilty that this is a Civil war firearm :thumbsup: ,,,,

I took the Hall to a gunsmith at a tactical type gun shop, he checked it out and gave it the okay to fire and suggested a 1/2 charge, I would be just as satisfied to fire a paper charge as opposed to a mini-ball if the paper is safer on the Hall.

This site is awesome I found an accessory link in Buck Coners thread about his original Hall I think I am on a new unplanned and costly journey :hmm: , 1st purchase is the bayonet and then maybe that coin thing......

 

[jdkerstetter]

I took the Hall to a gunsmith at a tactical type gun shop

No offense, but you don't see a problem with this statement?

Please have it checked out by a reputable historic arms collector or dealer. It is a treasure and it would be a shame if something happened to it.

Contact information to somebody near you can be obtained from the NMLRA.

J.M.2.C. J.D.

 

[Trench]

I took the Hall to a gunsmith at a tactical type gun shop

No offense, but you don't see a problem with this statement?

Please have it checked out by a reputable historic arms collector or dealer. It is a treasure and it would be a shame if something happened to it.

Contact information to somebody near you can be obtained from the NMLRA.

J.M.2.C. J.D.

I'd also be concerned about your own well-being. He suggested a half-charge. Did he have any idea what the full military charge was? Did he reccommend a powder? Is this your first experience with a black powder firearm?

 

[jdkerstetter]

I'd be very suprised if he'd even seen a picture of one before.

I don't know this guy but anybody can call themselves a gunsmith. Even if he did go to one of the schools and has a few years under his belt I would get a second and maybe third opinion.

I don't trust wiki much, anybody can post there, but even there they mention the gas leakage these guns are prone to. Gas leakage never gets better it leads to gas cutting which makes it worse.

One more thing, just what is your definition of a paper charge and how do you consider it safer than a minie ball?

Just trying to help, J.D.

 

[Jackman]

I took the Hall to a gunsmith at a tactical type gun shop

No offense, but you don't see a problem with this statement?



Contact information to somebody near you can be obtained from the NMLRA.

J.M.2.C. J.D.

Yes I see what your see and I had the same thought , a tactical shop is not the best source bit there are no antique gunsmith in my area that I know of, however the Tactical gunsmith is an above average gunsmith , I will look up the NMLRA and try to do better..

Paper charge to me is what those guys at most July 4th parades are shooting as a demonstration , no bullet.


I am the greenest of the green horns with flintlocks and black powder guns and know nothing yet, but hoping to learn and possibly shoot my flintlock.


Appreciate the help :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[jdkerstetter]

Paper charge to me is what those guys at most July 4th parades are shooting as a demonstration , no bullet.

I thought it might be but wasn't sure as you could have meant a paper military cartridge. Don't do that either. Old guns have been blown up that way. The barrel steel is of unknown quality at this point and powder acts differently when not behind a ball. Besides the fact that this is not a muzzleloader, a whole different animal.

I am the greenest of the green horns with flintlocks and black powder guns and know nothing yet, but hoping to learn and possibly shoot my flintlock.

No shame in that, we're all learning.

Be safe not sorry, J.D.

 

[Trench]

Okay, it's good to know your experience level. I wouldn't cut your teeth on a 180yr old piece of history. Even if you were shooting blanks, there could be issues. Does that breech seal off well enough to keep the gasses from blowing all over the place after 180yrs?

I don't know how new you are, but be sure you don't EVER use smokeless powders in a black powder firearm. They WILL blow up. Only real black powder ignites reliably in flintlocks. The black powder substitutes can be iffy. I would deffinitely forget about trying to shoot any type of projectice out of this hall rifle. Even if you just shoot a blank, you've got to clean the weapon meticulously. The residue reacts with moisture and becomes sulfuric acid and will rust out your piece of history if not maintained properly. What is the conditions of the bore? Is it smooth as a baby's bottom or is it somewhat rough? Yet, another reason not to try to force a projectile down a 180yr old barrel. It could meet enough resistance to act like an obstruction and blow up the barrel.

I deffinitely think we need to get you shooting, but not with this heirloom. I'd like to redirect you to the classifieds on the forum. Find yourself a nice flintlock that was made in the last 30yrs or so and start having fun. :wink:

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hi Jackman,
You have a true treasure.
Most of us would be happy to see one of the most unusual fire arms made during that time.
It was also very expensive to make, as there are so many pieces to the action, and frame.
The condition of your rifle is outstanding. If the barrel is half as good as the outside of the gun. WOW!
A modern replica of a Hall is pricey, so it would only be a guess as to the dollar value of yours.
Most forums are reluctant to put a dollar value on an uninspected piece, but from what I can see in your pictures, your is worth $5000++
Don't let it go easy!
All the best
Fred

 

[Jackman]

Okay thank you all! I think I am over the must fire it phase, now I want to clean it up amke a nice wall hanger.

What was the original finish on the steel, shiny or dull?

The stock I think mine has shellac on it but I would think shellac is not original, what would the stocks have been treated with 180 years ago?.

Any ideas on how to get the light coat of rust off

 

[jdkerstetter]

Hate to sound like a broken record but.....don't do anything to it until you have it looked at.

Original patina is best left intact unless otherwise advised by an expert and preferibly more than one unless the first one is a U.S. martial arms expert.

You could devalue the gun and (God forbid) if you ever had to sell it for finacial reasons you may regret cleaning it.

The most "I" would do is give it a coating of a good clear preservation wax like Mylan's, Briwax, or Renaissance Wax (preferred).

This will suspend any further corrosion and perserve any remaining finish on the wood.

I don't know what the original wood finish was but shellac was not an uncommon finish on some antique arms.

I thought somebody else had posted a Hall on here recently but I can't find the post. Maybe they would know where to seek out expert advise.

J.D.

 

[Jackman]

Yes I saw that other Hall flintlock post and pics by Buck Coner (I replied to his thread), I would like mine to look as nice as his :hatsoff: ,,,,,,,,, the petina on my Hall is nothing historical this piece hung on the wall in my parents house for 48 years it was not touched or cared for in anyway other than an ocassional dusting and thats where the rust comes from.