Hamilton Burr duel commemorative set

[MSW]

Dave- those pistols are truly droolworthy

 

[denster]

Mike
You can object all you want the gunsmith who did the alteration will need to be contacted by spirit medium. Uberti was contracted to reproduce the originals as they were at the time of the Hamilton Burr duel to exacting standards. I doubt they would have jeopardized a multi million contract by altering something they did not agree with.
I would argue that since the brass forend was meant to stay with the barrel and not be disassembled that soldering it in place would be the most secure.

 

[Brianc]

i sincerely doubt the screw is an issue as long as cleaning is done diligently. I scrubbed the bores and oiled then I reassembled I used anti seize on those screws. I’m so anal I actually use ballistol after shooting then come home and boil water with a tea kettle and clean and get burned lol again. Black powder is so low pressure it can’t be too big a deal

 

[Bill Rowe]

Here is the Jefferson set with all accessories , minus the ring for pocket clarity. Did it come with the paper work from the historical society with purchase ? The controversial story around the hidden set triggers on the original is fascinating . Nice find.

 

[Brianc]

No my set only came with an extra trigger which I thought was strange but some other sets that have sold have it as well with the paperwork to explain it . I have no way of knowing for sure but my guess is that someone’s grandfather had purchased these and they probably got moved around and nobody wanted them. They’re really nice . The Jefferson set is really nice too!

 

[mhb]

Mike
You can object all you want the gunsmith who did the alteration will need to be contacted by spirit medium. Uberti was contracted to reproduce the originals as they were at the time of the Hamilton Burr duel to exacting standards. I doubt they would have jeopardized a multi million contract by altering something they did not agree with.
I would argue that since the brass forend was meant to stay with the barrel and not be disassembled that soldering it in place would be the most secure.

Well, I don't believe spiritualists can help answer the question, but I have attempted to contact the Smithsonian - National Postal Museum with a request for more specific information about the issue, from examination of the original pistols. Whatever they may be willing and able to provide will suffice, I hope. If they do respond, I will share any information they give me.

mhb - MIke

 

[Bill Rowe]

I'm not sure what you mean by spiritualists . From what I remember is that when they went to remake these pistols. They found the hidden set trigger. These guns were Hamilton's, he furnished in the duel with Burr. He prematurely miss fired when drawing down on Burr because of this ... cheating, with history writing him as a gallant brave man who fired in the air as a token of great esteem. Burr did not miss. History did not know this till these guns were remade when they found the set trigger.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I am going to digress a little and address Bill Rowe's comment above. The controversy about the "secret hair trigger" and its affect on the duel is a debate about a myth. Hamilton was familiar with these pistols because his son was killed by one in a duel 3 years previously. It was standard equipment for dueling pistols to have set triggers since the the 1780s. Often there was no obvious adjustment screw showing because the trigger pull was permanently set by the gunsmith. Moreover, during their duel they lowered their pistols at each other for deliberate aim waiting for the signal to allow fire. Hamilton wrote before the duel that he intended to fire and obviously miss Burr hoping that would satisfy him and he would do the same. Burr hated Hamilton and probably intended to kill him regardless of what happened.

There are a lot of myths about dueling and dueling pistols in print and on the internet. Often any original pair of cased pistols are labeled as "dueling" pistols. The English and British dueling pistol in its fully evolved form (1780 and later) has several distinct characteristics. The barrels were full octagon, they had front and rear sights, the stocks were custom designed for the owners and fit the hand perfectly, the workmanship and technical excellence of the components was the best at the time, they were usually fitted with set triggers, they generally were devoid of bright ornament but beautifully engraved, and they were sold in wooden cases containing the pistols and accoutrements. Although rifling was frowned upon, later pistols sometimes had shallow scratch rifling. There were no legal rules for dueling because in England it was illegal but there were conventions and customs. However, those customs were just guides not rules so duels happened in many different ways depending on the antagonists. Dueling pistols were meant to kill or maim. There was no notion that they should not have sights or be inaccurate so "god" would decide the outcome. They were deadly accurate at the ranges fought and in the right hands were lethal.

dave

 

[Bill Rowe]

I'm not disagreeing as history writes about honor, weather he intended to miss, or not use the hidden sets in the trigger only he and another knew about. I would find it hard to stand their facing another with hatred and intent on killing me , and not take it seriously. I would be trembling, shaking and pissing my buckskins. I can not remember how many duel's Burr had before this with Hamilton. I do not think it was his first.

 

[Bill Rowe]

At a duel ? Was their a mediator that loaded the weapon's ? Or were they responsible for their own preparation, and If so .... were they watched and moderated, to insure no tampering , like damp powder, dull flint, undersize or double ball. Bill

 

[dave_person]

Hi Bill,
Yes the appointed "seconds" that accompanied the duelists where responsible for policing the duel within the rules agreed by the antagonists. The seconds loaded the pistols, gave the order to allow firing, and judged the results. People often make a big deal about "Code Duellos" such as the little book by Joseph Hamilton but they were compilations of generally accepted guidelines and norms not hard and fast rules. If you read the "Codes" and then read accounts of real duels, they diverge a lot. The rules of the engagement were whatever was agreed upon by the antagonists and their seconds. In many if not most places, dueling was illegal and the winner considered technically a criminal. But many places also just winked at the law and dueling went on. It was particularly, promoted in militaries.

dave

 

[denster]

Regarding the hidden set trigger. As Dave said that was almost a universal feature on dueling pistols after about the late 1770s. The advertising hype by the U.S. Historical society to sell the issue of 2000 sets made much of the alleged discovery but it was just that hype. The Jefferson pistols are not duelers but gentleman's overcoat pistols and also are of exceptionally nice quality and are the only set of Historical Society pistols I have not owned but I will eventually.

 

[Packrat]

This is the kind of articles that I joined up for.

 

[Bill Rowe]

Boy I would love to have a set too. Back last year they sold three, maybe four sets of these at auction, my saved watch list shows the one picture from Hawkeye2 sold for 1800$ before the premium. I want to say a couple well fired sets went in the 1600$ range. Their was one set that had 000 A, 000 B , serial numbers, they were mint. I failed to save that pictures though. I thought if I still had them in my watch list, their would be enough original picture reference to your search.

 

[Brianc]

Pictures of the inside of the lock as requested by pm this way anyone else can see the inside too

 

[dave_person]

Hi Brian,
Thank you very much. So the internals parts are not historically accurate. Here are images of real Wogdon locks from that time period that I built. They are the finest locks I've ever made and better than anything most of you have probably ever experienced.

dave

 

[Brianc]

Most probably like anything else anymore, how can we make it cheaper and sell it for more? Not surprised. Thank you Dave

 

[Brianc]

Just messing with them they do throw a real shower of sparks

 

[denster]

Just messing with them they do throw a real shower of sparks

It looks as though someone prior to you has had the locks out and likely apart. The sets I owned the internals were all polished including the interior of the lock plate and the screw slots were clean and sharp.

 

[Brianc]

It’s possible of course. They existed quite a while before I came into possession.