Hangfire Questions

[Ranger94]

Hello Everyone,

I have a CVA Squirrel rifle, Flintlock, .32 caliber, that my Dad got for me around 1984 give or take. I break it out and shoot it from time to time. Everytime I fire it, there is about a half second delay (very small hangfire) before igniting. My loading procedure is directly from the Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual. I have also varied this procedure all with the same result:
1) I insert a nipple pick into the touchhole
2) Load powder (30 grains FFF)
3) Patch round ball
4) remove pick
5) about half to 3/4 pan of FFFF, trying to keep to outer edge.

This gun has always had this slight hangfire. I wonder if I enlarge the touchhole will show improvement. I also notice the touchhole is not perfect aligned with the pan, it is a little far forward (towards the muzzle).

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciative.

Thanks!!

Ranger94

 

[flinter1977]

I would try to load without the vent pick in . and see if that makes a difference. It might be preventing the charge to getting close enough to the pan.

 

[smo]

Yes, drill the touch hole out.. can’t recall the bit size normally used.

Just gauge the hole with your drill bit, then try the next larger size.

I had the same issue with a GPR flintlock.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Try a bit less prime as well. Drill touch hole to 1/16” (I believe that is correct, but chemo brain kicks in sometimes. Regardless someone else will either confirm or correct me on this). Ensure you tap the stock (small slap with palm) on the opposite side of the lock to try and settle the powder down the flash channel.
Flinters can be finicky and something as tiny as too much prime can make the difference.
Walk

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Hello Everyone,

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciative.

Thanks!!

Ranger94

Provided your TH is a clean hole without any burrs on the inside, or tunneling/canalling through a too close breech plug 1/16" should be just fine. I have several flintlocks and they do not all like prime the same way. First of all I would forget the pick while loading. If you want to pick, pick before you load to make sure the TH is not blocked. When you load the powder needs to be next the TH. Hand smack the side of the rifle two or three times to settle the powder or tap the butt on the ground two to three times. This is a must to make sure powder is where you want it. If the TH is not centered on the pan, widen it up if possible to make it centered. I alway widen my pans to give a larger surface to catch more sparks.
Try priming next to the TH at center, but not plugging it, then away, and also right into the TH. If the prime is above the TH, you have burn time before it gets to it.
Keep us posted.
Flintlocklar

 

[Zonie]

Ranger6:
The CVA breech probably looks like the one in this photograph.

Although this photo shows a percussion breech, the flintlock breech is similar. The only difference is, the drum for the nipple isn't there and the plug you see ends flush with the side of the barrel.
The main powder charge on a flintlock works best if it is right tight at the vent plug hole next to the outer face of the barrel and in order to get there the loose powder must make that 90 degree turn.
When you plug up the vent hole and ram the patched ball, no air can escape thru the vent hole so there is nothing to blow the powder over next to the vent hole.

Load the gun without plugging up the vent hole. That will allow the air in the barrel under the ball to blow some of the main powder charge over to the touch hole as it escapes while you ram the ball.

As the others said, use a 1/16" drill bit to enlarge the vent hole if it is smaller than the drill bit. (Most factory vents are smaller than 1/16").
Also, when your priming the pan, do not cover up the vent hole with the priming powder. If you do, there will be a time lag as the priming powder burns its way down to expose the vent and as the powder that is in the vent burns away.

 

[montanatim]

Hello Everyone,

I have a CVA Squirrel rifle, Flintlock, .32 caliber, that my Dad got for me around 1984 give or take. I break it out and shoot it from time to time. Everytime I fire it, there is about a half second delay (very small hangfire) before igniting. My loading procedure is directly from the Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual. I have also varied this procedure all with the same result:
1) I insert a nipple pick into the touchhole
2) Load powder (30 grains FFF)
3) Patch round ball
4) remove pick
5) about half to 3/4 pan of FFFF, trying to keep to outer edge.

This gun has always had this slight hangfire. I wonder if I enlarge the touchhole will show improvement. I also notice the touchhole is not perfect aligned with the pan, it is a little far forward (towards the muzzle).

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciative.

Thanks!!

Ranger94

I had one of these, the breech is as Zonie showed. Cleanliness is absoluty neccesary. If you have not had your vent out ever, I would suggest you remove it and use a little brush, pipe cleaner or similer instrument to ensure that that flash channel is spotlessly clean. With that done make sure there are no burrs in the way by looking down the barrel with a light at the vent linerless flash channel, and again looking down the flash channel with the light down the barrel.
My loading technique was to make sure every thing was dry dry dry inside, pour powder (no vent pick) hold rifle with vent at slight angle to the ground and rap on the opposite side of the barrel a bit to settle the powder in the flash channel, seat ball, prime, shoot. never had a hang fire. You did not state what kind of powder, it must be real black powder.

 

[Brokennock]

Less prime. Try half of what you've been using. Maybe less if the lock sparks well.

 

[Ranger94]

Thanks to everyone on the recommendations. I will give these a try!

As for drilling the vent hole, that makes me a little nervous. I assume I should use a drill press? I am meticulous about cleaning my firearms, and I can remove the touch hole with no issues.

 

[Ranger94]

Sorry. One other question. What size Flint should I order?

 

[Kansas Jake]

You can drill the touch hole with the liner in the rifle with a electric hand drill, Just go slow. You will probably want to remove the liner after drilling to check for metal chips in the breech area afterwards.

I also have to slap the off side off the stock after loading or tamp the butt on the ground as Zonie suggests to get consistent ignition with my Traditions.

 

[sawyer04]

I have a Dixie 32 that had the same problem. I increased touch hole next size up only. I also very slightly chamfered outside of touch hole. I also take a non sparking mortar and pedestal and grind my priming powder to a fine powder. Eliminated problem.

 

[Brokennock]

Thanks to everyone on the recommendations. I will give these a try!

As for drilling the vent hole, that makes me a little nervous. I assume I should use a drill press? I am meticulous about cleaning my firearms, and I can remove the touch hole with no issues.

Harbor Freight has a rather large set of #drills for around $20 if I remember right. This will allow you to move the hope up in size in very small increments.

 

[Grenadier1758]

That very large set of Harbor Freight drill bits usuall available in the stores is the fractional bit set and it will only have the 1/16" and the 5/64" drill bits and a lot of other bits that you won't need for drilling touch holes. I don't see the numbered drill bits in the Harbor Freight Stores, but they do have the set available.
https://www.harborfreight.com/titanium-high-speed-steel-numbered-drill-bit-set-60-pc-61690.html

Specifically, the sizes you need for touch hole diameters are the following:

Drill Size Diameter Area Ratio to 1/16"
56 0.0465 0.001698 0.55354 -0.44646
55 0.052 0.002124 0.69222 -0.30778
54 0.055 0.002376 0.77440 -0.22560
53 0.0595 0.002781 0.90630 -0.09370
1/16 0.0625 0.003068 1.00000 0.00000
52 0.0635 0.003167 1.03226 0.03226
51 0.0670 0.003526 1.14918 0.14918
50 0.0700 0.003848 1.25440 0.25440
49 0.0730 0.004185 1.36422 0.36422
48 0.0760 0.004536 1.47866 0.47866
5/64 0.0781 0.004794 1.56250 0.56250
47 0.0785 0.004840 1.57754 0.57754
46 0.0810 0.005153 1.67962 0.67962
45 0.0820 0.005281 1.72134 0.72134

Copy the above table and enter it into an Excel Spreadsheet. Let the program separate on spaces for the data to line up. First number is drill size, second number is diameter in inches, third number is area in inches squared, fourth number is the increase in surface area with respect to the area of the 1/16" hole, and the last is the difference between the area with respect to 1/16".

52 to 48 are the numbered sizes to use. #50 is one of the widely used sizes. You have 25% more surface area of opening compared to the 1/16"

I also like to chamfer the entry edge to smooth the flow of heat into the powder chamber. Square corners at the entry point disrupt smooth flow of heat and can influence hang time.

 

[Mad Irish Jack]

What sawyer04 mentioned. I had a Lehigh with a Numrich 40"long, 15/16" barrel and the touch hole was 1/16". I had that "just past instantaneous hang-fire". I used my Dremel and used the sharpest coning bit I had. That made the flash compress going in the channel and solved my problem. Just dress the touch hole coning about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way in to the main charge. You don't want to make a large hole started on the outer edge of the barrel. You can always add a liner later if you desire. But you might have to go to a larger liner if you make to large of a coning area.

 

[Ranger94]

sorry, can someone elaborate on:

??slightly chamfered the outside edge of the touch hole??

 

[Grenadier1758]

Basically its what Mad Irish Jack just described, but not quite as much. I use a small chamfer (cone shaped) bit to just enlarge the entry of the touch hole. By the way, both a relatively deep cone or a slight rounding can improve ignition times. The physical effect is that the heated gases from the pan accelerate through the touch hole as the diameter decreases. A sharp edge causes turbulence at the entrance of the touch hole. The turbulence slows the heated gases. That's one of the reasons the hex socketed touch hole lines work. The internally coned liners have the advantage of having more powder at the touch hole to ignite and create a large internal to the powder chamber fire ball to set off the rest of the charge.

 

[Ranger94]

Thanks again for all of the help! I have a buddy who is a machinist. He examined these posts went to his garage/shop and knocked it out for me. I will let you know how it goes.

 

[Brokennock]

That very large set of Harbor Freight drill bits usuall available in the stores is the fractional bit set and it will only have the 1/16" and the 5/64" drill bits and a lot of other bits that you won't need for drilling touch holes. I don't see the numbered drill bits in the Harbor Freight Stores, but they do have the set available.
https://www.harborfreight.com/titanium-high-speed-steel-numbered-drill-bit-set-60-pc-61690.html

Specifically, the sizes you need for touch hole diameters are the following:

Drill Size Diameter Area Ratio to 1/16"
56 0.0465 0.001698 0.55354 -0.44646
55 0.052 0.002124 0.69222 -0.30778
54 0.055 0.002376 0.77440 -0.22560
53 0.0595 0.002781 0.90630 -0.09370
1/16 0.0625 0.003068 1.00000 0.00000
52 0.0635 0.003167 1.03226 0.03226
51 0.0670 0.003526 1.14918 0.14918
50 0.0700 0.003848 1.25440 0.25440
49 0.0730 0.004185 1.36422 0.36422
48 0.0760 0.004536 1.47866 0.47866
5/64 0.0781 0.004794 1.56250 0.56250
47 0.0785 0.004840 1.57754 0.57754
46 0.0810 0.005153 1.67962 0.67962
45 0.0820 0.005281 1.72134 0.72134

Copy the above table and enter it into an Excel Spreadsheet. Let the program separate on spaces for the data to line up. First number is drill size, second number is diameter in inches, third number is area in inches squared, fourth number is the increase in surface area with respect to the area of the 1/16" hole, and the last is the difference between the area with respect to 1/16".

52 to 48 are the numbered sizes to use. #50 is one of the widely used sizes. You have 25% more surface area of opening compared to the 1/16"

I also like to chamfer the entry edge to smooth the flow of heat into the powder chamber. Square corners at the entry point disrupt smooth flow of heat and can influence hang time.

I got mine in the store at Berlin, CT.

Haven't had the chance to use them yet though.

 

[Griz44Mag]

The physical effect is that the heated gases from the pan accelerate through the touch hole as the diameter decreases. A sharp edge causes turbulence at the entrance of the touch hole. The turbulence slows the heated gases. That's one of the reasons the hex socketed touch hole lines work.

I had not really thought about in those effects. I did notice an improvement in ignition in all three of the guns I installed the hex liners in. I did check those liners for hole size all they are slightly larger than a 5/64 bit. I rationalized that that was probably the reason for the improvement in reliability, but now I think it is probably both the hole size and the hex pocket. What I do know for sure that it was an improvement in all three guns.