• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Hard, brittle, and fast PRB for more damage?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
A patched round ball is what it is, fast or slow, you may change the composition of the lead, from soft to hard or hard to soft for more or less penetration, which I feel does not do as much as people feel it does, but ballistically you got what you got, it will never compare to a jacketed bullet designed projectile
 
I had been thinking of a way to get more damage and a faster kill with a PRB. You see this with modern bolt gun ammo... the more explosive the bullet, the more damage to vitals it does and thus a faster death for the game.

I realize we're talking apples and oranges here, but it's something I'd been pondering and wondered if anyone has tried it.

Perhaps using a slightly small ball (and thick patching ) of super hard lead alloy, maybe a smaller caliber like 45, and load it up to the fastest speed possible. I would think that maybe you could get a really hard and brittle ball to break/fragment at impact, causing more damage to vitals due to many more cuts in vital tissue.

Has anyone tried it, thought about it, or have it happen unintentionally?
I had been thinking of a way to get more damage and a faster kill with a PRB. You see this with modern bolt gun ammo... the more explosive the bullet, the more damage to vitals it does and thus a faster death for the game.

I realize we're talking apples and oranges here, but it's something I'd been pondering and wondered if anyone has tried it.

Perhaps using a slightly small ball (and thick patching ) of super hard lead alloy, maybe a smaller caliber like 45, and load it up to the fastest speed possible. I would think that maybe you could get a really hard and brittle ball to break/fragment at impact, causing more damage to vitals due to many more cuts in vital tissue.

Has anyone tried it, thought about it, or have it happen unintentionally?

Soft pure lead does the best job on most deer size game. This was a .495 pure lead ball loafing along about 1600 fps, One shoulder was soop/cat food. Approx 60 yds.
IMG_0586.jpeg
 
So if you use a "hard" alloy, you are going to likely blow a nice, clean hole right through your prey. Hard lead bullets = penetration. Soft lead bullets = deformation. You want hard lead bullets on very large, dangerous game, to reach the vitals, especially since it tends to be safer to shoot them farther away. However you trade deformation and an expanding wound channel for that penetration. On the other hand if you up the velocity quite high on pure lead, the deformation will happen faster than at a moderate impact speed, boosting friction and actually slowing down the projectile faster.

When you say "explosive" modern bullet, IF you mean it fragments then no that's not desired. IF you are taking hydrostatic shock, and the "explosive effects upon impact" that's a bit different. It's NOT from the bullet design. (Modern bullet designs want massive deformation but no fragmentation, to give the hunter the largest permanent wound cavity.) Hydrostatic results are from the random chance that the impact of the bullet at very high velocity coincides with the heart-beat of the animal. If the bullet impacts when the heart is at full contraction, you get the best chance at hydrostatic impact effect. And if not, then you lessen the chance. You're not going to get those velocities from black powder.

THAT is why the calibers are large and the bullets very heavy. You are relying on inertia at impact to overcome the friction of the animal's body.

If you're not getting a fast kill with the PRB, then you may be defeating yourself. I've had many more BANG-FLOP situations where the deer dropped in its tracks or dropped so fast that the animal was within 20 yards of where it was standing when hit. I've also had to track a lot of deer hit with modern ammo large distances.


Broadside there is the double lung shot, thus

View attachment 360039

Some go for the heart too with this, and aim lower, but I like to eat the heart, so I only go for lungs. The objective to be to hole both lungs and exit the opposite side, deflating the lungs in an instant and having a good blood trail if needed. I've only had to track one deer hit thus, and he was jazzed having just run over to the farm where I was because across the road they were having a fox-hunt. (Horns, and hounds, and mounted hunters, and what a racket!) So this is a good choice but..., sometimes adrenalin doesn't make it the best choice.

IF the deer quarters toward you, the shoulder shot has the best chance of dropping the animal where it stands.

View attachment 360040

This smashes bone in the shoulder and very often the ball deflects into the spine.

There are other shots of course for very competent marksmen, but with only one shot I prefer either of the above.

The only other possibility, is there have been instances where folks have tried to duplicate the velocity of the modern rifles, and that's not how this tech works. Very high impact velocities will cause massive ball deformation and the friction may actually prevent proper penetration due to the deformation.

Historically the folks that depended on flintlocks and caplocks for food, quite often only worked up an accurate load that "cracked" when fired, and stopped experimenting there. That crack meant the ball was going supersonic (they didn't know that, they just knew the results were better when the load made the ball "crack" going down range) So a patched round ball only doing 1100 fps is pretty much guaranteed not to be supersonic at impact. It seems counter-intuitive, but it does work.

LD
Excellent post, Dave.
 
A lot of us, probably most of us, are shooting our replica muzzleloaders at game because we want to live that part of history. Modern projectiles have no place within our efforts to immaculate those frontiersmen. The scoped inline hunters who are in it for the extra season have a completely opposite mindset. The market is full of bullets they like and use. I guess it is just a case of who you are and what you like. Me, I like to be as close as practically possible to the 18th Century.
 
A lot of us, probably most of us, are shooting our replica muzzleloaders at game because we want to live that part of history. Modern projectiles have no place within our efforts to emulate those frontiersmen. The scoped inline hunters who are in it for the extra season have a completely opposite mindset. The market is full of bullets they like and use. I guess it is just a case of who you are and what you like. Me, I like to be as close as practically possible to the 18th Century.
You said exactly what was on my mind. Trying to make a traditional ml rifle more like a modern rifle makes no sense at all. Putting a hood ornament on a mule won't make it go 0 to 60 in five seconds either. So why try?
 
What is your goal? In general, slower speed means more penetration, less projectile deformation inside the animal, and a smaller wound channel, But you might be more likely to get an exit. Higher speed is just the opposite, except then you can extend your range out further. Since you're not shooting over 50 yd, you can probably get away with a pretty slow ball
How slow is pretty slow, I'm at 1700 fast now?
 
How slow is pretty slow, I'm at 1700 fast now?

That I do not know. I've yet to shoot any game with my flintlock and have only been in the muzzleloader game for a couple years. My knowledge only extends to some principles of terminal ballistics where new and old intersect.
 
Please educate me. Why are you using linotype for your bullets? There are cheaper ways to make your bullets harder.
It make beautiful bullets and doesn't lead up the barrel even at 2000 fps. During *******'s anti gun administration I stocked up on supplies and bought a half ton of the stuff for 50 cents a pound, been shooting off that supply for 30+ years and still have enough for the rest of my life.
 
I don't have a lot of money so just my two cents (and I realize it's contrary to the OP ?). Maxis carry more energy at longer distances and most deer never leave their tracks. No need for a long discussion.
 
I don't have a lot of money so just my two cents (and I realize it's contrary to the OP ?). Maxis carry more energy at longer distances and most deer never leave their tracks. No need for a long discussion.
Absolutely correct. Maxi Balls has never let me down yet since back in the early 80's.
 
IMO: Well placed round balls kill deer as well as a .270 Winchester or .30-06.

Every year i kill several deer using Hornady patched round balls fired from .50 and .54 caliber rifles. Sometimes a .58 caliber is used. Most shots are < 60 yards. Won't shoot at a deer more than 75 yards. away.

Powder charge for the .50 is 80 grains of Black MZ powder. The .54 uses 90 grains.

Most of my deer are killed with high shoulder or high just behind the shoulder shots. This shot disrupts the central nervous system; most bang flop:

 
Last edited:
You Can certainly cast up some balls from wheel weights and either water drop them or heat in the kitchen oven and quench them in the kitchen sink full of cold water. They will be hard, very hard. But in the end I doubt if they can be shot fast enough to cause them to fracture. Especially as distance gets longer. Balls shed velocity pretty fast.

At one time a company, I think TC, sold a device that would put an X in a pure lead ball. Their advertising claimed that the ball would break into four pieces and therefore be even more deadly. I don't recall any actual evidence presented to support that claim and I never saw or heard any discussion of actual field experience.
 
IMO: Well placed round balls kill deer as well as a .270 Winchester or .30-06.

Every year i kill several deer using Hornady patched round balls fired from .50 and .54 caliber rifles. Sometimes a .58 caliber is used. Most shots are < 60 yards. Won't shoot at a deer more than 75 yards. away.

Powder charge for the .50 is 80 grains of Black MZ powder. The .54 uses 90 grains.

Most of my deer are killed with high shoulder or high just behind the shoulder shots. This shot disrupts the central nervous system; most bang flop:

Nice shooting! Accurate shot placement is paramount vs ammo used.
 
At one time a company, I think TC, sold a device that would put an X in a pure lead ball. Their advertising claimed that the ball would break into four pieces and therefore be even more deadly. I don't recall any actual evidence presented to support that claim and I never saw or heard any discussion of actual field exexperience.
Yes, that was Thompson/ Center Arms. In their catalog a couple years before fading into obscurity. In my young years I wanted a set of those cutters that screwed onto the ramrod, but funds were scarce. Just as well, really not needed.

The only times I want a fragmenting projectile are for prairie dogs and coyotes. Butchered a wild hog shot with a Sierra soft point through the chest. A chunk of lead was resting on the bone of the front leg. I'm not afraid of lead, but I don't want to digest it. Mushroomed conicals and flattened PRB's are well proven projectiles that don't leave splinters throughout the muscles.
 
I have killed a bunch of deer with an October Country sporting rifle designed for dangerous game. Loaded with 22% grains of FF it hammers deer and pigs. I have also killed deer and pigs with a .4% SMR loaded with 90 grains of FFF.
I have never had one make it out of sight. If you put it in the right place you can kill any deer out there with a .22LR so anything more powerful is just that much better.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1095.jpeg
    IMG_1095.jpeg
    4.3 MB
  • IMG_2651.jpeg
    IMG_2651.jpeg
    3.6 MB
To be clear, I'm not attempting to turn a PRB into something like a modern jacketed bullet at high speed. I have merely wondered if you were to shoot a deer or elk broadside going for double lung, with a high speed ball that is brittle and would fragment, if it would produce a faster kill than a ball that expands 50% or maybe to 100% it's original size.

It's highly likely I won't ever try this.

And this is nothing to do with magnum-itis. Quite the opposite. I'm talking about terminal efficiency... Getting the most killing power out of the least lead, powder, and recoil. I have recently decreased caliber for all my other hunting rifles!

It has been shown, that when hunting with a CF cartridge, using a small caliber highly fragmenting bullet will on average produce much faster kills than a larger caliber with a tough bullet that just mushrooms. Speed and bullet design matters, not caliber or cartridge. Even for elk, we're talking about death within 30 yards vs 100 or more.

I'm not attempting to discuss or debate the ballistics of modern cartridges, but just want to explain the reason for what I'm thinking about.

After seeing a couple of the responses.... It's possible that my understanding of the lethal efficiency of a round ball lacking. I've yet to shoot anything with my 58, but I thought that even with the larger balls it still ends up being a decently long tracking job due to death times more similar to archery. Maybe that's not true, at least not with deer. Whitetail die pretty dang easily compared to elk.... To the point that I have a little fear of shooting an elk with a PRB due to possibility of no exit and no blood trail ... That's bad news in the woods I hunt in unless they die within 40 yards.

As long as you stick to broad side heart lung area shots with the aim point in the center of the deers vitals, with your .58 you will normally find your deer within sight. I’ve never had one travel out of sight useing my .58 cal rifle using 80 gr ffg with either wheelweight alloy balls or pure lead. Big entrance hole big exit easy blood trails. BJH
 
I had been thinking of a way to get more damage and a faster kill with a PRB. You see this with modern bolt gun ammo... the more explosive the bullet, the more damage to vitals it does and thus a faster death for the game.

I realize we're talking apples and oranges here, but it's something I'd been pondering and wondered if anyone has tried it.

Perhaps using a slightly small ball (and thick patching ) of super hard lead alloy, maybe a smaller caliber like 45, and load it up to the fastest speed possible. I would think that maybe you could get a really hard and brittle ball to break/fragment at impact, causing more damage to vitals due to many more cuts in vital tissue.

Has anyone tried it, thought about it, or have it happen unintentionally?
As far as brittle goes, Lazer cast makes .429 SWC that are hard to the point of brittle. At handgun velocities they work ok, but I learned the hard way if you bump them up 400fps in a carbine they will shatter on impact and leave a flesh wound. We recovered the doe, but was a long hike through the "Dark and Bloody".

I read William Finnalty's story of hunting Elephant with muzzleloaders. He added Tin, but I don't recall the mix. Soft lead balls wouldn't penetrate the hide on Ele. I think his mix was 10-1 lead/tin. There has to be a happy medium or you'll get horrible performance.

Check out Lymans cast bullet manual; some very scientific articles about what happens to Galena when mixed and shot.
 
Round balls that are pure lead expand somewhat when hitting resistance. That slows down the ball and a lot of them don't exit to give a good blood trail. A round ball cast with wheel weights is harder, much less likely to expand and has a better chance of exiting the deer providing a much better blood trail.

To expect either one to travel fast enough to fragment is a pipe dream. The black powder and aerodynamics are working against you. If you use smokeless powders and conical bullets then it is probably possible.
 
Back
Top