Hard lead in a smoothbore?

In a little over four months from now I should be the proud owner of a North Star Early English trade gun.
I’ve got lazy in my old age and will probably never cast a ball for the .50 or the .36 unless the cost of store-bought swaged ones gets ridiculous.
.600s on the other hand”¦.
None are available locally, and ordering them, even if they were cheaper, could get cost prohibitive in a hurry. So it looks like it’s time to get back into the casting game.
I did an inventory of what I had left over from the first time around in the lead department this morning. I was surprised how much there was. Because I used to cast for center fires as well as muzzleloaders, I have as much, if not more, hard lead than pure lead.
I know the importance of soft lead in a rifle, but really, when there is no rifling involved, how important is the hardness of the lead. The only other bullets I will be casting are .58 Minnie balls. These, obviously must be soft lead but any .600 round balls will be easy to distinguish from everything else when I mine the backstop.
So”¦”¦
Should smoothbores be pure lead only, or can good results be had from some melted down 32-20 bullets and reclaimed shot?

 

[jeffdrown]

I use straight "wheel Weights" for casting my .62 (20 gauge) It shoots great!!!

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

As there are no riflings in a smoothbore hard lead will work fine. Using wheel weights or other harder
lead, the balls will be slightly smaller. If you do not mix the hard lead ball with the regular lead balls there will not be a problem.

 

[roundball]

.600s on the other hand”¦.
None are available locally, and ordering them, even if they were cheaper, could get cost prohibitive in a hurry.

Randy, I don't know where your threshold is regarding the volume of .600" balls you plan to shoot vs. the cost, but for additional information, Eddie May's cast .600"s are $11.00 / 100...I use them for deer hunting in my .62cal Virginia

 

[hanshi]

WW metal and alloyed CF lead work like a charm in smoothbores. The ball will be slightly larger - i.e. a .600 pure lead ball might be .605, say - but also very slightly lighter. WW is what I use in my smoothbore so I can save soft lead for the rifles.

 

[paulvallandigham]

One caution: Alloys vary widely depending on the percentage of tin, antimony and lead used in any given casting. The causes changes n both weigh, and size.

SO-- If you use "range lead" to cast these large Round balls, you need to sort the cooled lead balls by both weight and diameter.

This also requires you to know the EXACT diameter of the bore of your barrel. Do NOT rely on the " gauge" marked on the barrel to mean anything of value. There is a wide variance in actual bore diameters that have the same gauge marked on the barrel by the maker. MY "20 gauge fowling piece" is really a "19 Gauge"! Some other "20 ga. barrels" are really 21 gauge barrels.

We have charts here under " Member Resources" for you to consult to tell what you really have. For instance, while a true 20 gauge bore is NOMINALLY .615" in diameter, Some makers are selling barrels that run .605"( nominal 21 ga.) and in my case, a .626" bore that is closer to the nominal .629" diameter for a 19 ga.! :shocked2: If you don't do your own measuring how can you possibly know what you are shooting, or how to get the best accuracy?

Knowing your exact diameter is important in ordering wads, and cards, as well as choosing a Ball diameter to shoot out of your particular bore. GUESSING always costs you money, or diminishes performance of the load. When you cast round balls from something other than pure lead, the variations in diameter can destroy accuracy.

For instance, thinking my new, custom made fowling piece would be a true 20 gauge, I invested in .600" diameter lead balls, and some denim that was about .020" thick. The ball went down the barrel easily- too easy! :idunno: The first shot off a rest at only 30 feet hit almost a foot low. I chronographed the next shot, and found the MV was some 250 fps Slower than what we expected. Finally we used calipers to measure the bore, and found the source of the problem.

I ordered 19 gauge wads, and cards, and the next range session saw an 8" rise in POI, and 225+ FPS added to the velocity, still using the .600" diameter lead balls.

I Have now acquired some .610" diameter balls to test, and expect that they will shoot even better. If I am correct, I will order a mold, finally, to cast my own .610" lead balls.

I Now have 19 ga. OP wads, and 19 ga. cards( Overshot cards) I Kept the 20 gauge pre-lubed "cushion wads" because they load so much easier down my oversized bore when shooting PRBs. :hmm: :thumbsup:

Unless you have the new gun in hand, don't be in such a hurry to order components. Wait until you can do those measurements, and THEN you can order the right stuff. :surrender: :hatsoff:

 

.600s on the other hand”¦.
None are available locally, and ordering them, even if they were cheaper, could get cost prohibitive in a hurry.

Randy, I don't know where your threshold is regarding the volume of .600" balls you plan to shoot vs. the cost, but for additional information, Eddie May's cast .600"s are $11.00 / 100...I use them for deer hunting in my .62cal Virginia

It isn’t the cost so much as the inconvenience.
If I suddenly find myself short of .350s or .490s two days before a shoot somewhere, a short drive to one of the local gunshops can still fix the problem. Having to order balls and have to wait on them to arrive would be a bit of a pain.
When my guns were stolen a little over thirteen years ago I sold almost everything that hadn’t walked out the door. The Zouave I got for a graduation present was elsewhere and wasn’t stolen so I kept the two molds that went with it and a set of large handles. I sold the bottom pour furnace, but I got better bullets when I first started, using an iron ladle and a hot plate and that is how I will do it from now on. The only real cost of molding my own will be the mold.
The cost of a Lyman mold is a little staggering to someone who remembers buying them brand-new for $10.50 but back then a pound of powder was three bucks and you could buy a new car for less than four grand.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use pure lead for my rifles, and all other lead for the smoothbores with no problems. :idunno:

 

[Many Klatch]

Randy, check out the molds from Jeff Tanner in England. Custom made your size and usually delivered within a week of ordering. You furnish the handles. Grizz and I both use these molds.
http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.htm

Many Klatch

 

[damron]

i shoot 15 BHN balls in my 12ga snoothie patched and they do as well as pure lead.

George

 

[tg]

Not sure about all of NSW barrels but my NSW NW gun liked a .595 ball as well as the .600, and I had a NSW Chiefs gun in .58 that did great with a .550 ball with proper patch. Many use .590 balls so a thicker patch can be used in the .62 guns. Some feel that using the larger balls in all smoothbores and a smaller patch might cost one accuracy, not my personal experience but I have heard it mentioned often. One has to try different balls and see what works the best. Most folks I know use wheel weights and most any lead for smoothbores, I have a bunch of soft lead so I am using it up as I have no rifles left. I do not think that we have any game in the lower states that need the penetration offered by the harder lead, it might even be a handicap if it does not expand at all everytime at any range on any shot?

 

[damron]

not sure if a .600 or bigger ball needs to expand!



I only use the scrap harder lead for 12ga because i am hoarding my pure lead for rifled bores.(and its free if i scrounge it at a local shooting pit)If i had enough pure lead i would sure use it.

George

 

[tg]

Nor do I, but many have their own preferences for ballistic performance based on speculation for the most part with ML's I believe.

 

[damron]

Nor do I, but many have their own preferences for ballistic performance based on speculation for the most part with ML's I believe.

I'm just pure and simple cheap no speculation there! When i cull a doe off of the orchard behind me later this year you can bet i'll be using a 100% lead RB.Why take a chance.

George

 

Randy, check out the molds from Jeff Tanner in England. Custom made your size and usually delivered within a week of ordering. You furnish the handles. Grizz and I both use these molds.
http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.htm

Many Klatch

When the time starts getting short I’ll contact North Star and make sure their recommendation is .600. I’ve looked at Jeff Tanner’s molds and all the comments I have read about them are favorable, but I REALLY like Lyman molds. If I can use one, I prefer it over all others.
Ain’t gonna make the Widowmaker shoot in May. I already had plans for around that time, and I won’t have it all together by then anyway.
I will probably be at Friendship Sunday the first weekend. See ya then.
Hoping I might make it to the southeastern in October.

 

Not sure about all of NSW barrels but my NSW NW gun liked a .595 ball as well as the .600, and I had a NSW Chiefs gun in .58 that did great with a .550 ball with proper patch. Many use .590 balls so a thicker patch can be used in the .62 guns. Some feel that using the larger balls in all smoothbores and a smaller patch might cost one accuracy, not my personal experience but I have heard it mentioned often. One has to try different balls and see what works the best. Most folks I know use wheel weights and most any lead for smoothbores, I have a bunch of soft lead so I am using it up as I have no rifles left. I do not think that we have any game in the lower states that need the penetration offered by the harder lead, it might even be a handicap if it does not expand at all everytime at any range on any shot?

Most of us probably use thicker patching than we need to.
There was not a whole lot about round ball shooting in Ned Roberts’ The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle, but one reference to cloth patching was the recommendation of “shirt bosom linen” which, to me anyway, would be something under the .017 or more that many are using now.
One of the things I plan to experiment with is paper cartridges. If the results are favorable, I will be using a very thin patch indeed.
At any rate, I still have several months to read and study on the subject. This will be the fourth smoothbore I’ve owned, not counting a few double barrel percussion shotguns. It will be the first that I plan to put some serious work into.
Thanks to everyone for confirming my gut feeling that hard lead will work fine in a smoothbore.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Just remember that hard lead doesn't expand or upset in the barrel like soft lead will, so that all the Seal against hot gases has to be provided ONLY by the thickness of the fabric used to wrap the ball.

If your desire is to make loading or "reloading" in the field?? easier, then consider using a Vegetable fiber wad as an OP wad to provide the gas seal. Then a thinner patch can be used in front of that.

That patch around the ball is asked to do a lot: don't over work it! Consider: A. Center the ball in the bore; B. seal hot gases behind it to prevent gas cutting the lead ball; C. Lube the bore to soften fouling; D. Grab the ball sufficiently to keep the ball from rolling out the barrel, or shifting forward off the powder to become a bore obstruction. The larger the bore, the heavier the ball, so the chance of the ball moving in the bore is higher should the gun be dropped, or the muzzle bumped against something, and you are using a TOO-THIN patch.

[In rifles it has to fill the corners of the square bottom, rifling grooves, and transfer the spin to the round ball.]

Using an OP wad may sound like a PITA, and an unnecessary step. I believe that using a slightly smaller ball diameter with a greased thicker patch will still allow you to thumb start the ball down the muzzle, while providing enough of a seal for your use.

If your bore is the nominal .615" for 20 ga. barrels, using the .600" balls should be optimum for best accuracy. Then for second shots- candidly , I just can't envision the need for a second shot after you hit an animal with a 20 ga. RB------ load a .590 or .595" ball with a thicker patch for that second shot. Use a loading block to carry your reloads into the field- say, no more than 3 extra shots per block.

If you don't yet know what kind of performance to expect from a 20 ga. RB, visit the traditional hunting thread below, and go through back pages of reports from members. On Whitetail- sized game, more often than not the ball completely penetrates the chest, and the deer drops DRT! On Elk, the full penetration is reported out to 75 yards or so, and the animal may take a few steps before falling down. But, do your own comparison testing of those RBS- both pure lead, and hard lead-- when you get your gun. Compare it to any other gun you have that you have used to kill game, or know will kill game, routinely. Only then will you understand our comments about the "Whompability" of this sized smooth bore, shooting RBs. :hatsoff:

 

Just remember that hard lead doesn't expand or upset in the barrel like soft lead will, so that all the Seal against hot gases has to be provided ONLY by the thickness of the fabric used to wrap the ball.

If your desire is to make loading or "reloading" in the field?? easier, then consider using a Vegetable fiber wad as an OP wad to provide the gas seal. Then a thinner patch can be used in front of that.

That patch around the ball is asked to do a lot: don't over work it! Consider: A. Center the ball in the bore; B. seal hot gases behind it to prevent gas cutting the lead ball; C. Lube the bore to soften fouling; D. Grab the ball sufficiently to keep the ball from rolling out the barrel, or shifting forward off the powder to become a bore obstruction. The larger the bore, the heavier the ball, so the chance of the ball moving in the bore is higher should the gun be dropped, or the muzzle bumped against something, and you are using a TOO-THIN patch.

[In rifles it has to fill the corners of the square bottom, rifling grooves, and transfer the spin to the round ball.]

Using an OP wad may sound like a PITA, and an unnecessary step. I believe that using a slightly smaller ball diameter with a greased thicker patch will still allow you to thumb start the ball down the muzzle, while providing enough of a seal for your use.

If your bore is the nominal .615" for 20 ga. barrels, using the .600" balls should be optimum for best accuracy. Then for second shots- candidly , I just can't envision the need for a second shot after you hit an animal with a 20 ga. RB------ load a .590 or .595" ball with a thicker patch for that second shot. Use a loading block to carry your reloads into the field- say, no more than 3 extra shots per block.

If you don't yet know what kind of performance to expect from a 20 ga. RB, visit the traditional hunting thread below, and go through back pages of reports from members. On Whitetail- sized game, more often than not the ball completely penetrates the chest, and the deer drops DRT! On Elk, the full penetration is reported out to 75 yards or so, and the animal may take a few steps before falling down. But, do your own comparison testing of those RBS- both pure lead, and hard lead-- when you get your gun. Compare it to any other gun you have that you have used to kill game, or know will kill game, routinely. Only then will you understand our comments about the "Whompability" of this sized smooth bore, shooting RBs. :hatsoff:

Most of my shooting, and I imagine everyone else’s, is at targets that don’t require killing.
For the targets that do, where is always going to be more important than how hard. Newton’s laws apply, and I have never been a fan of being the “equal and opposite reaction” that results from using an excessive load in an attempt to turn a black powder rifle into an H&H magnum. Karamojo Bell killed 200 African elephants with the .303 British round, and the late Arthur Jones (just to prove it could be done) killed one with a standard issue Model 1911!
As I said, this will be my fourth smoothbore. The first was a Twig inspired fowler, built primarily as a shotgun, by shotgun shooter Gary McGraw. It shot a .715 ball fairly well but was really too light to comfortably shoot round balls.
Number two was a TOW fusil that shot well (with a .600 ball) but was sold to offset the cost of number three, a Homer Dangler fusil with a shorter barrel than the TOW gun. Once again, the .600 shot well. All in all, I know what to expect from a smoothbore because I know a lot of guys who shoot them and hunt with them.
Back then I used my hard lead for 45/70s, .38 Specials, and 32/20s. The pure lead was for muzzleloaders.
I still have use for the .38, but now use commercial bullets. The other guns are God knows where. This leaves me with a lot of hard lead that I KNOW will not shoot well in as a round ball or Minnie ball in a rifle. I started this thread to get the general consensus of using hard lead in a gun where the patch acts only as a gasket. (As an aside, I don’t remember all the particulars, but there was a good debate in the old Buckskin Report about whether or not the patch IS a gasket. Someone, it may have been Sam Fadala, referred to the patch as an anti-gasket.) The reason for the lead used in a rifle to be soft is so THE PATCH CAN GRIP THE BALL. The object of the patch is not as a gas seal, but to make sure the ball does not strip the rifling. The majority of people who have responded, all apparently speaking from personal experience, have opined that hard lead will work well in a smooth bore. There are a lot of other issues, powder charge, wads or no wads, patch thickness, no patch at all, etc. to sort out. I will probably try shooting pure lead balls and hard lead balls with everything else the same just to see how much difference there is between the two. For now though my question has been answered to my satisfaction.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You have been given a lot of hooey, IMHO. If you have Dutch Schoultz's Blackpowderrifleaccuracysystem, you will know how to read spent patches and tell the difference between patches that seal and those that don't.

Some folks, back then, and now, confuse the blur that appears in front of exiting bullets, and PRBs when recorded using time-lapse( High speed) Photography, as BP having escaped around the PRB, when they are instead looking at compressed water or "steam" that is being driven in front of the bullet or ball down the length of the bore. A careful look will show that this moisture dissipates Much quicker when it leave the bore than the carbon-loaded soot that follows the projectile does, proving that what you thought you saw as soot, ISN'T.

Drawing a false conclusion that a fabric patch does not seal, because you see a blur on the film in front of the exiting PRB, is simply an error in understanding accurately the premises. A false premise always leads to a false conclusion. Not all blurs are the same! :hmm:

TRUTH: A properly sized bullet, or PRB will seal gases behind it. You don't need time lapse photography to prove it. Its evident on the spent patches, when you know how to read them.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since The Buckskin Report was in print. Dr. Sam has written some good stuff, but he's not God. On this he is dead wrong.

As to grabbing the ball, every fabric I have tested has a course, and smooth, side to it. You put the coarse side in contact with the lead ball, regardless whether the lead is soft or hard. The Smooth side of the fabric goes against the bore.

Testing using Chronographs shows that you get more consistent velocities, and performance using patch fabric this way, than ignoring which side is up or down. With some ticking, and denim, you may actually see the fabric WEAVE impressed into the ball, provided the lead is soft enough, and the ball is close to bore diameter. :hmm:

If you buy your fabric by the yard, and cut it in strips, you can push a ball down into the fabric in the middle of a strip, so that you have wings to grab to pull the patch and ball back out the muzzle to see what condition the fabric is in. Use this in comparing soft lead to hard lead balls. Then after shooting each, pick up the spent patches to see if you are getting gas blow-by. That will teach you correlations, and help you choose the correct patch thickness for either the of ball.

There is obviously No known reason you can't get as accurate a performance using hard cast lead balls as you can using soft ones. The only caution is to remember that there are differences for which you have to make adjustments in components.

If you are loading a rifled barrel with a PRB, you will get more information from such a test, than if loading a smoothbore.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I agree Paul, the debate on "whether or not a patch is a gasket" is largely a matter of semantics. The patch may not be a perfect gasket but gasket is one of the purposes it serves.