Hard times for BP shooters

[deermanok]

Between hunting and target shooting, I only use about a pound a year. I have enough on hand for about 15 years, so I'm good.

 

[doubleset]

Can't remember the last time the bread maker exploded.

True. However, I did once see a thermos of pea soup (made by my mother-in-law) explode in a refrigerator. It was an incredible mess that I ended up cleaning up because at that point my wife had taken two of the kids across town to visit the mother-in-law. My older son was present with me and helped with the clean-up. Over the past (40-some) years, there has been recurrent speculation about what caused the explosion. My wife (with a biology degree) maintains that it involved a combination of thermal and biological actions under pressure in the thermos. I have no better explanation. But it was very impressive. Somehow, my mother-in-law had weaponized pea soup.

I mention this little story only to emphasize that now and then rather common things burst into flame or explode. But that's very unusual. Certainly bread and bread makers fall in that category. You're pretty safe with bread, bread dough, and a bread maker. You can count on it. Black powder, on the other hand is designed to burn and explode. That's what you want out of it. It shouldn't be a surprise to any reasonable person if BP burns or explodes. So maybe an analogy to the dangers of BP and the dangers of bread makers for the purpose of encouraging us in making BP shouldn't really be very comforting.

 

[doubleset]

I know that there are folks who make this stuff for personal use. They heavily rely on the fact that they are not "engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials" because they don't sell, trade, or give it away, and thus are not engaged in "business", BUT they seem to stop short of actually reading ALL that applies. ...

Really great summary of facts (what the laws actually are as expressed in the published documents) and what those facts mean (analysis). All that is, of course, unlikely to change any minds of the truly committed we see often represented here -- but that's a feature of the minds and not the facts. And of course -- as always -- they're welcome to their own feelings and opinions, and to take whatever risks they deem "reasonable and appropriate" in the exercise of their individual liberties.

 

[doubleset]

but the Feds would say is proof.

Not necessarily proof, but definitely evidence -- which then needs to be refuted by counter-argument. Plus, those cases are decided not by the "beyond a reasonable doubt" criterion, but by the preponderance of the evidence. And it's not just the criminal courts (at various levels) you need to be concerned about. It's your homeowner's insurance carrier: "Dear Sir: I'm afraid you're seriously crazy if you think we're going to pay out on this policy so you can rebuild the barn that you blew up by making an explosive in it. Have a good day." But again, this is unlikely to make the committed reconsider.

 

[andy52]

Black powder isn't that hard to get, caps are more difficult, however.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Somehow, my mother-in-law had weaponized pea soup.

That's the funniest thing I've heard in ages.

wm

 

[Henry Miles]

The USC 845 under Chapter 40 has exception 4) for small arms ammunition and components which is not shown in LD's posting of the law. It states as follows:

§845. Exceptions; relief from disabilities
(a) Except in the case of subsection (l), (m), (n), or (o) of section 842 and subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of section 844 of this title, this chapter shall not apply to:

(1) aspects of the transportation of explosive materials via railroad, water, highway, or air that pertain to safety, including security, and are regulated by the Department of Transportation or the Department of Homeland Security;

(2) the use of explosive materials in medicines and medicinal agents in the forms prescribed by the official United States Pharmacopeia, or the National Formulary;

(3) the transportation, shipment, receipt, or importation of explosive materials for delivery to any agency of the United States or to any State or political subdivision thereof;

(4) small arms ammunition and components thereof;

(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as exempted from the term "destructive device" in section 921(a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code;

(6) the manufacture under the regulation of the military department of the United States of explosive materials for, or their distribution to or storage or possession by the military or naval services or other agencies of the United States; or to arsenals, navy yards, depots, or other establishments owned by, or operated by or on behalf of, the United States 1 and

(7) the transportation, shipment, receipt, or importation of display fireworks materials for delivery to a federally recognized Indian tribe or tribal agency.

 

[Henry Miles]

The law in Chapter 40 is intended for explosives and the manufacture and distribution, possession of such explosives. Small arms ammunition and components are not legally considered explosives. Otherwise all ammo components would be illegal, as would reloading metallic cartridges.

 

[doubleset]

The law in Chapter 40 is intended for explosives and the manufacture and distribution, possession of such explosives. Small arms ammunition and components are not legally considered explosives. Otherwise all ammo components would be illegal, as would reloading metallic cartridges.

Black powder is considered an explosive (and in fact is an explosive). There is no sense in which it's not an explosive. There are threads in this forum and any number of places on the web that cite the relevant federal documents (and any number of industry documents as well) concerning this. I don't know where people get this idea that black powder isn't an explosive. I know why they want to believe that, but it's just not true. "Black powder isn't an explosive." has the status of urban myth. Except it isn't urban. More "country myth" or "backwoods myth" or "wishful thinking" myth.

 

[rusticbob]

I just received 5 lbs of Schutzen from Graf, I cannot tell the difference between that and Goex.

 

[granth]

I would personally be weary about making my own powder, I’m scared that my powder would burn my eyebrows off! People seem to have had good results making their own powder, but I think I’ll pass.

 

[tenngun]

Black powder is considered an explosive (and in fact is an explosive). There is no sense in which it's not an explosive. There are threads in this forum and any number of places on the web that cite the relevant federal documents (and any number of industry documents as well) concerning this. I don't know where people get this idea that black powder isn't an explosive. I know why they want to believe that, but it's just not true. "Black powder isn't an explosive." has the status of urban myth. Except it isn't urban. More "country myth" or "backwoods myth" or "wishful thinking" myth.

I was taught so by the navy. We had high explosive, the gel in torpedo head say, and low explosives, propellants. Then we had stuff that was neither. High nor low and was only explosive when we wanted it to be and not when we didn’t want it to be, Black powder and torpedo fuel Otto fuel II were examples
Back at tge time I thought huh????
Did you ever see the British legal definition of ‘Nut’ it was a little clearer

 

[doubleset]

I was taught so by the navy. ...

I can't respond to what the Navy tried to teach you or what you learned from the Navy or why the Navy might have been trying to make certain distinctions. Regarding any definition of "nut", I can only say that anyone who believes black powder isn't an explosive pretty clearly fits the definition of "nut".

 

[tenngun]

Should you make small batches of black, say half a pound or so at a time. The most you could get would be a fizz
Might not be the best idea in your basement but in your back yard would be no more then a barbecue smoking.
Legal status not withstanding my brother was a pothead and grew his own for at least twenty years. He didn’t sell, though he may have gave some away. I live where meth is out number one cash crop. But labs busted are rare and then only because the maker used to much of his own product and blew them selves up.
I made powder as of yet it’s not worth me making my own and I don’t shoot as hard as many, at my rate I’ve probably got a lifetimes supply on hand
Check out some you tube vids on shooting ml, it shows that ml doesn’t equal smart. But on the other hand most of us dyed in the capote ‘skinners’ could or only supply their needs from now till kingdom without ever attracting imperial notice.

 

[Henry Miles]

While BP technically is an explosive, which I never denied, it's use in small arms ammo and components is an exception to Chapter 40 laws concerning explosives. Read it for yourself. I posted a copy in post #27. I have not altered any wording. Exception (4) clearly states this fact. Otherwise you would not be able to have this explosive in your possession legally. It's quite obvious if you read what I posted. BP for small arms and components does not qualify for Chapter 40 rules. Period.

 

[tenngun]

I can't respond to what the Navy tried to teach you or what you learned from the Navy or why the Navy might have been trying to make certain distinctions. Regarding any definition of "nut", I can only say that anyone who believes black powder isn't an explosive pretty clearly fits the definition of "nut".

Wouldn’t argue with you as I was making smoke before I ever marched. However as black is it’s own category of explosive neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat.
Do you know why rabbit got domesticated?
During holy days one couldn’t eat meat, but could eat fish. Bunnies are born hairless. So they were fish not ‘meat’ and could be eaten.

 

[doubleset]

However as black is it’s own category of explosive neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat.

Where do people get these beliefs? From the Goex site:

Black powder is a Division 1.1 Explosive. and detonation may​

cause severe physical injury, including death.​

That's not being "it's [sic] own category of explosive". That's being a category 1.1 explosive. Maybe just try reading the entire GOEX Powder, Inc MSDS to see how much it talks about black powder being an explosive. The word "explosive" occurs 27 times in that document.

Or if you'd like a different perspective and careful descriptions of explosives, including black powder, just check the Britannica article on "explosive: chemical product".

People really need to stop making this stuff up as they go along just to try to justify their own hopes and dreams.

 

[doubleset]

It's quite obvious if you read what I posted. BP for small arms and components does not qualify for Chapter 40 rules. Period.

Well, thanks for that, y'honor. I'll cite it as authoritative precedent in my next case. Quite obvious. Period.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I have always understood that BP is an explosive where Smokeless is not.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I have always understood that BP is an explosive where Smokeless is not.

You are only allowed to own a limited quantity of BP, I believe max 50 lbs?