Harrisonburg VA 1764

[rich pierce]

Gus, I think it is most likely a 1770s rifle but I am more familiar with early Pennsylvania rifles than early rifles from other areas.

My clues include furniture- though the buttplate looks 2” wide, the guard and buttplate do not feel earlier to me, a recycled lock (happened a lot in the lead-up to, and during the Revolutionary War), and a sideplate with an American feel. It looks sleeker than guns I know or guess are pre-1770.

 

[54ball]

That's a neat rifle.

I have seen similar rifles like that. Dennis has a Roanoke Rifle in the ALR mueseum with a musket guard that's 1st maybe even 2nd quarter of the 19th Century.

What I have seen and it brings thoughts to my mind and I do mean thoughts rather than a really educated hypothesis, is that some of these "Valley Guns" tend to show what most would consider early even though they could be rather late.

From the meager few I have seen, the wrist tends to be thicker.
The furniture seems early.
On some the locks tell the tale as they are obviously round tailed import locks.
On others the butts can be more narrow with more crescent.
Others still could have a relatively wide plate with little crescent....that looks early.
Some could be iron.

All I'm saying is that some rifles are hard to date as they tend to keep earlier or what most would consider early styling way longer than what many would think.

Rich that rifle indeed appears to be early but there's not enough, at least for me to offer an opinion. Too, my opinion could be very wrong.

Just as some rifles look early it goes the other way as well.
I know a fellow that has a dated Thomas Simpson from 1803. It has 1803 on the box engraved with the same hand as the other furniture. A signed and dated rifle is a treasure indeed.

Back when I thought I really knew stuff about Kentucky Rifles,(until now when I know I'm ignorant) I would have guessed that rifle to be 1820s-30s by buttstock styling.

My thoughts are what many consider to be evolutionary steps may simply be a matter of styling and fashion.

For instance my present opinion (it may change) is I really do not believe in a "Transitional Kentucky". The missing link between the Jeager and the longrifle.

I believe it was the Shreik rifle a British captured Rev War Rifle that spent a lot of time in England and unfortunately has had a lot of "work" done.
It has a German barrel...stocked in American wood. Is it a transitional? I think it's a German styled rifle stocked in America.

In the Germanic States you'll see long barreled small caliber rifles that are identical to American longrifles.

Fowlers and Trade Fusils becoming longrifles....No. That's more of a cultural passing of the torch like the cap lock to the cartridge repeater. Of course rifles and smoothbore will both show attributes of contemporary styling.

I'll close these wandering thoughts with this...
It's like trying to reconstruct a 200 page novel with 188 pages missing.

 

[excess650]

I recall the Schreit 1761 having a stepped wrist, but don't recall thinking the barrel was European. Are you confusing it with Martin Meylin?

 

[Artificer]

My thoughts are what many consider to be evolutionary steps may simply be a matter of styling and fashion.

For instance my present opinion (it may change) is I really do not believe in a "Transitional Kentucky". The missing link between the Jeager and the longrifle.

The following information may support your hypothesis, as rifles with longer than more common "Jaeger length barrels" were imported pretty early into Pennsylvania.

In 1730 [Caspar] Wistar established a trade connection with Georg Friedrich Hölzer, a family friend in the Palatinate. He ordered goods from Germany, which were then transported by German immigrants in their personal belongings in order to avoid British duties and then sold in his shop in Philadelphia. Using the immigrant transportation system for illicit trade was quite common among non-British immigrants at the time since the restrictions and duties imposed by the Navigation Acts were prohibitive. Although nowhere near as profitable as his land speculation, Wistar’s trade in imported commodities from the Rhine and Neckar Valleys represented an important step in his entrepreneurial and personal affairs. Establishing himself as the main supplier in an emerging market, he was able to furnish his fellow immigrants with specialized services since the items he imported (knives, scissors, needles, brass and iron goods, copper kettles, mirrors, eyeglasses, tobacco pipes, ivory combs, lace, and custom-made rifles) were not readily available in the colonies at the time. He only ordered high quality items and managed to attain market dominance in rifles by making sure his source in Germany was kept secret."
https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=1

“Many gunsmiths may have spent much of their time repairing guns rather than creating new ones. There had long been a steady stream of imported guns into colonial America. Caspar Wistar imported German rifles in the 1730s and 1740s, asking his supplier to tailor them for the American market, where consumers “prefer rifles with barrels that are three feet and three to four inches long[26]
[26] Caspar Wistar to Georg Friederich Hölzer, October 1, 1737, in Rosalind Beiler, Immigrant and Entrepreneur: The Atlantic World of Caspar Wistar, 1650-1750 (University Park: Pennsylvania State University Press, 2008), 145-146.” https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=180#_edn26

Note: The rifle barrel lengths mentioned above were 39 to 40 inches long, not quite the 42 to 46 inch lengths they would eventually grow to, but longer to much longer than many traditional German Jaeger or Hunting rifles.

“Caspar Wistar (1696-1752), who immigrated to Pennsylvania in 1717, imported more than fifty rifles, many especially tailored for the American market, from gunsmiths in Suhl and Rothenberg between 1731 and 1745.”
From: JOHANN ANDREAS ALBRECHT: MAKING RIFLES IN EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY MORAVIAN ECONOMIES
Scott Paul Gordon

Gus

 

[54ball]

The Shcreit has a stepped wrist that was likely more prominent. At one time it had a wood guard and maybe some other things done to it in England.
The 19 th Century wooden guard was removed and replaced with a more suitable but none the less non original brass guard.
Sometime during all this the toe line was altered reducing the step,
This is an example of how a rifle looks now may not be how it looked then.

 

[rich pierce]

+1. At that time when the Schreit rifle “had some work done”, Early, robust rifles were not as preferred by collectors as later, highly decorated rifles, and that may have influenced how it was restored. These sorts of changes make the task of the contemporary builder who tries hard to emulate original work, much harder.

 

[Elnathan]

Schreit rifle with her stepped wrist still present:

These images are out of an old auction catalog, I believe, and were posted over at ALR ages ago.

If it ever had a wooden guard it was when it was original. As you can see, the triggerguard present is certainly a replacement, and is not the one currently on the rifle. Evidently whoever replaced the 19th century guard shown here with the current one also removed the step-toe. I think it is likely that the step-toe was bigger than in the picture originally, and that it was reduced somewhat when the original triggerguard was first replaced, since German step-toes tend to be a little bit more prominent, but I'd want to study some German rifles a bit more before committing to that.

I don't think that I've ever seen a reproduction of this gun as it would have appeared new, which is a shame. I don't care for the carving on it, but in every other respect it is a grand rifle.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Wow!

You guys have given me a whole new outlook on this. Thanks!

Hey, I almost have my Kibler together. Almost time to take it back apart and polish - maybe carve a little something very simple.

Is browning the barrel appropriate?

 

[azmntman]

Yes, I would brown for sure :thumbsup:

 

[54ball]

I hate to use terms like most and common. Like I said earlier, a great portion of these are lost to history.

Likely a great number of these, the metal was finished in the white. The barrel was filed and smoothed but not to armory bright.
The lock was filed and polished. This was accomplished by pumice, brick dust or stones. ( honing stones). Rich or Dave Person can give you some tips. Do not machine polish or use too fine of abrasives.

Wallace Gusler has taken many longrifles apart and many show evidence of bluing. Likely charcoal bluing. This process has been done at Colonial Williamsburg and by other traditional Smiths.

Basically the barrel is buried in charcoal, Some methods use a pit. Other methods use a trough of charcoal with a fire underneath, and another suspends the barrel just over the coals.
The last method I thought was more of a temper blue but apparently due to length of time and near contact with the coals it makes a deep finish.

There is an element of risk with charcoal blue. It will not work with solder like sights. Remember the blade of the front sight is soldered to the base.

The greatest risk is scale forming in the bore.
Do the research if considering charcoal blue.

Blacking or Browning....

It is said that Americans and the British are two peoples sepperated by a common language.

Some scholars believe that Blacking is what we would consider.... Browning.

On the other hand Browning in old English texts is what we would consider today....Rust Blue.

Both processe are similar. The difference is boiling.

In modern lingo...... To get rust blue the browned barrel is boiled in water turning the brown to a deep blue or black.

Smoothbores and fine doubles were done this way due to solder.

Period rifle finishes.....
Lock polished barrel in the white...
Lock polished barrel charcoal blued....
Lock polished barrel browned....
Lock polished barrel rust blued...

A more modern aged finish is all metal parts browned.

Another modern twist is a grey finish applied to the white barrel. This gives the in the white barrel some color.

With that said a light grey finish is found on some original European guns....French Grey.

The French Grey is accomplished by a light application of cold blue, then it's rubbed back.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The Harper's Ferry factory description for the 1803 rifle is for the barrel to be browned and the lock and screws to be blued.

 

[54ball]

I would be willing to bet that in this case blued means a cased colored lock..... a heat treatment.
All locks are cased hardened in the period. In the Colonial era colors were polished bright.
Sometime around the turn of the 19th Century 1800, case and case colored hardware became in fashion.

 

[nhmoose]

By the way case colors are only microns thick so any cleanup after wood makes the metal bright again. In fact sunlight can destroy case color per many SXS guru's.

Case color has to be protected by some kind of finish like clear lacquer obviously not used HC/PC

 

[54ball]

If you notice in the period, bluing means some kind of heat process....
Temper blue
Charcoal blue
later.....
Carnoba (sic) spelling and the high heat
Caustic tank blue all require significant heat.

Case hardening and the temper process can produce dark grays, lighter grays, blacks and blues. Sometimes other colors but in the 18th Century when most locks were polished, colors were of no matter.
Later when case colors came into fashion special processes were done to produce coloring..... in the pack and in the quench.

As far as the blued locks on the M1803...
The US still had the contract Rifles. As much as many of us love American longrifles they are not a military grade weapon. Especially the contact rifles made by dozens of makers.

The US had a few Rifle troops going back to Wayne's Legion. It was not until the dawn of the new century that the US Army began to really get serious about regular Rifle Troops.

Ironically this was in response to both the French and the English developing real rifle corps and the tactics to use them. Both France or England could be potential enemies.

One of the main missions of Rifle troops were scouting, being at the van, covering the flanks and the rear guard. Today we would call them Recon. They were expected to make first contact. They were also expected to be fast almost like shock troops to resond rapidly where needed. The Rifle Regiments were one of the first troops in the modern era to utilize camouflage .

Now I'm back to the browned barrel and dark lock for the 1803.... I.E. not polished as was military tradition.

Have you ever noticed, sometimes you will get a lock with a dark frizzen?

On the other hand,
Browning
Russeting
Blacking
Cold rust blue....

These are rust processes sometimes utilizing chemicals. The only heat nessrsary is the boil to turn brown to a rust blue.


As far as the laquer.... Period manuals recommend a tinted green or brown Camphor varnish to reduce glare and prevent rust. This was to be applied to the exterior metal work.

 

[Artificer]

I don't believe I have ever seen documentation for rust bluing on 18th century guns? I would LOVE to find documentation for that, but as far as I know, rust bluing only began in the 19th century?

So while rust bluing makes a fine and durable finish, it would not be correct for an 18th century rifle during that period.

Like your explanation on what a "browned" barrel was in the 18th century. What can drive we modern folk crazy is it could have meant what we consider browned or blued, depending on who was writing about it.

Gus

 

[Elnathan]

Artificer, I think that there is a c. 1790 advertisement that offers barrels browned and rust blued, with the implication that one or another was a new fashion at the time, but I don't recall which one. I think it might be in Volume V of the Journal of Historical Armsmaking Technology. That is one volume I don't own yet, natch....

Left bright or charcoaled blued are the safe choices. I've heard a lot of conflicting information regarding the various forms of rusting and the dates and commonality thereof.

Incidentally, while most barrels these days are mild steel and can be charcoal blued with no problem there are some barrels out there made with 41-series chrome moly steel(older Rayl barrels, Rice's new thin-walled smoothbore barrels, and Jim Maclemore's barrels, plus some special order barrels) the same stuff as modern centerfire barrels. The temperatures reached in charcoal bluing are high enough that they may mess with any heat-treatment already in the barrel, and of course you don't want to inadvertently harden such a barrel, so it is probably best to avoid charcoal bluing with one of those. Not a problem with Kibler's kits, but worth mentioning for others that might not have thought about such things before...

 

[Zonie]

R. H. Angier, in his book, "FIREARM BLUEING and BROWNING", © 1936 writes about bluing going back to the days of armor with it's heat bluing.

He goes on to say, "Improved methods followed the development of chemistry, and the oldest browning process for military arms, by means of "butter of antimony" (According to G. Buchner) is described in the Hanover Magazine in 1781.

In the literature on the subject the statement is generally found that the browning of gun barrels with this substance originated in England towards the end of the 18th century, which may be quite correct as regards military arms.

The browing of barrels is in itself however much older, even in England, and according to information kindly given the author by Mr. C. E. Greener (the well-known Birmingham gunmaker), was in common use for sporting arms about 1720. A report of 1637 in the London Record Office explicitly mentions the "russetting" (sic) of barrels under the heading of "repairs to the Arms of the Trained Bands" (London Militia)."

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Russetting is not altogether proven as browning in those early references. Some contend it was a pigmented coating for rust prevention.

 

[Artificer]

Artificer, I think that there is a c. 1790 advertisement that offers barrels browned and rust blued, with the implication that one or another was a new fashion at the time, but I don't recall which one. I think it might be in Volume V of the Journal of Historical Armsmaking Technology. That is one volume I don't own yet, natch....

Unfortunately, I have been too hasty lately pulling out books and not replacing them properly in the book cases. So I have piles of books stacked and I'm not sure if I have Volume V or not.

Is this what you are referring to?

An Essay on Shooting, 1791, William Cleator,

"Formerly barrels were coloured by a degree of heat which produced an elegant blue tinge, but as this effect arises from a degree of calcination taking place on the surface of the metal, the inside of the barrel always suffered by undergoing the same change. This, therefore, added to the painful sensation excited in the eye by looking along a barrel so coloured, has caused the practice of blueing to be disused for some time past. Instead of it, barrels are now browned as it is termed. To do this, the barrel is rubbed over with aqua fortis or Spirit of Salt, diluted with water and laid by until a complete coat of rust is formed upon it; a little oil is then applied; and the surface being rubbed dry; is polished by means of a hard brush, and beeswax. "

The problem is this procedure does not mention carding/boiling the barrel after rusting to turn it Rust Blue/Black ”“ so it is basically a Browning Treatment.

However, even if there is an advertisement in the 1790's for Rust Bluing - it is too late for the OP's Rifle Research.

Gus

 

[Elnathan]

No, that is not it, unless my memory is mistaken...It was an advertisement for services that included both processes, from the US.