Hawken problems

[Paul R]

Bought a used T/C .50 Hawken a while back. It was a very good price, but when you get a ball stuck and remove it by welding a drill bit on a rod to drill it out & don't stop until you start coming out the breech plug, it really cuts down on the value. *****! (him, not me) Anyway, after realizing there was very little I could do for the barrel without some hefty investment, I sprung for a Green Mountain .50 cal. w/1 in 28" twist for sabots, drop-in replacement.

Tried it with T/C 240 gr. XTP bullets & Mag Express sabots in front of 100gr. 777 2f. It grouped well, but about12" high at 50 yds. The stock really didn't fit me so I thought that might be part of the problem, especially with the bruises I got from that curved buttplate.

I worked up a plan for a thumbhole with enough drop to continue using the open aights. I ended up with a very nice fitting stock, complete with a Limbsaver recoil pad. Could hardly wait for it to get back from my finisher so I could try it out.

In the meantime, I did some reading & realized I was using too much powder. When I took it out the second time, I cut back to 70 grains powder & it still shot way high,even with all the adjustment out of the sights. I tried it at 50 & 100 yds. & all shots were in the same group. All in all the only real difference with the new stock was it was much more comfortable to shoot. All shooting was done at a picnic table, resting on a firm archery target bag.

When I built the stock, I bedded the barrel at the breach and at the forend of the stock. The barrle is a close fit to the stock. The wedge is a snug, but not tight fit, so I don't think I am warping the barrel, especially since the wedge loop is so close to the bedding. I also tried some 80 grain charges, with shots going into the same group. The difference was the 70 gr. shots were perceptively slower with some fliers due to the crosswind.

So, my thoughts have come up with; reducing the powder further; trying to find a tang peep sight that would give a lower sight line at the breech; trying to warp the barrel to lower the POI; or??? Any suggestions or experiences that I can use?

 

[Bill Hall]

I gotta ask, are you sure you're cranking that rear sight down, instead of up. No offense intended with such a simple question, but hey, it happens.

If your rear sight is like the T/C sights I remember, I wonder if you could file some metal out of the way to get it to screw down further. If not, and if you really like the rear sight and the way your face fits on the stock, then a taller front sight is your best option. Bill

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have NO experience with the kind of ammo you have chosen to shoot, and this forum does Not normally allow us to discuss these kinds of projectiles.

However, your "bullets" are hitting high because the sights are not proper on that barrel. It may just be that you need to adjust the rear sight DOWN to lower the POI. Or you may indeed need a taller front sight.

You can also reduce that powder charge further. Its a lot of velocity for those slugs. Triple 7 is a substitute powder, based on ascorbic acid, and burns at a temperature that is at least 300 degrees hotter than black powder. Unless its compressed when loaded, it can "hang-fire". That doesn't do accuracy any good, either. The load of 777 you are using produces 20-30% more MV than a comparable volume load of 2Fg black powder. I would Expect bullets to hit higher when using so much powder!

Before spending more money, you might also consider trying a .495" diameter Patched Round Ball, cast from soft lead- not the commercial swaged balls that seem to be made with antimony in them--- and a charge of 60 grains of 2Fg powder to start. Work up in five grain volume increments from there. Use a .015" cotton patch to have a good tight fit to those shallower grooves. I suspect that your barrel will shoot that load a lot more accurately, and MV is enough to use to take deer out to 80 yards.

Most .50 cal. RB barrels have a slower Rate of Twist to the rifling, and much deeper grooves than what you have. They would normally shoot a .490" ball well, with a patch from .018"-.020" thick, lubed with vegetable oil, or Bore Butter, or Stumpy's Moose Snot. Because of the slower ROT, they would require a bit more powder- 70-80 grains of 2Fg.

Your gun might also prefer using 3Fg powder, as it burns faster with a comparable load, giving about 10% more MV, and upsets the soft lead ball faster. That seems to help when shooting PRB from faster ROT barrels that have shallow grooves.

 

[mjones1579]

Taller front sight, lower rear sight, either or both.....that's the ticket. Really, they make those front sights from an eighth of an inch to an inch and a quarter for about 15.00 to 20.00 bucks. Check Brownells or Midway. Globe sights, blade sights, small white dots, large white dots, glowing fiber optic sights....whatever you want.

 

[necchi]

With the Hwakin, try moving the butt plate out onto your shoulder socket/armpit area instead of in the shoulder like a modern flat butt rifle, that'll give you a bit different sight picture and actually that's where the curved butt belongs,, :thumbsup:

As mentioned, taller front sight,,when I have run into this problem I just carefully wrapped some duct tape around the front blade with a bit of milk bottle plastic to keep it straight up-down, then went to the range with a sharp blade and cut some off each group till it was right for me, then rpl the blade with one taller and filled to what I needed.

 

[William O.]

Previous advice on the sights shoulf be your first task, I would first replace the front sight with a taller one, then see how it's doing. I have a fast twist barrel in .50 too, that I changed out the sights on. I put an adjustable buckhorn rear with a brass blade in front, which makes for a very fast, clear sight picture. Either reduce your charge of T-7 to 55 grains or get some real black powder in 3f. Buy some maxi-ball/hunter lead conicals or even the Great Plains bullets that are pre-lubed for your projectiles, in the 350 gr. weight range. Just keep in mind that powder is measured by volume, weight is a measure of mass, please don't confuse the two. You measure out your powder charge by grains of volume, not by weight. I'd hate to hear the results of you touching off 55 grains by weight of any powder. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. If you can find tradtional black powder available in your area, by all means by a few pounds. The store may also have the bullets I've mentioned. If you know someone who casts their own bullets then ask if they have any moulds for muzzleloading conicals, such as the Lee REAL bullets, and see if he'll make you some to try out. We don't talk about bullets with plastic skirts on this forum, as others have pointed out. Welcome, good luck and let us know how you do, we look forward to you joining in on the conversation soon.

 

[Paul R]

It appears I have committed a faux pas in my anxiety to find a solution to my difficulties by mentioning those plastic thingies. I did not read the rules carefully enough, so now, I apologise to any I may have offended.
When I finish this post, I shall move over to that other forum which appears to be more in line with my needs.
The information I have gleaned from those who responded to my request and those who have posted previosly in this forum has helped me to eliminate at least some of the difficulties I have been having. After shooting more today, I know that I will be able to drop a deer next week, if the opportunity presents. As for shooting nice tight groups, I'm reminded of that old adage about training mules. "First, you have to know more then the mule."
Again, Thank you. Paul Reuter

 

[CaptainKirk]

Hey, Moose in Canoe(gotta love that name!)...don't go away! Your faux pas is forgivable...(just this once!)
I would strongly suggest you try out some of the recommended projectiles given in some of the previous posts. It's fun and easy to cast your own, costs next to nothing, and pure lead can do more to bring down game than you might believe!
Your gun might just shoot better with them. You'll never know until you try. Besides, if it doesn't work out, you can always revert back to "them other projectiles".
Stick around...you might learn a lot!

 

[gearheart]

No offence taken. the guys were just 'splainin. Your fast twist barrel will definitely benefit from projectiles that are longer than the calibre. My 1/28 X 20" GMB / LRH barrel loves Lee REAL bullets. I bought a T/C WMC for a "good price" until I noticed that it had been put away dirty and the barrel after extensive cleaning, looked frosted inside from the pitting. Like you I replaced it with a fast twist GMB barrel. They were on sale. You have to experiment with the loads to get a muzzle velocity that yields an acceptable RPM to stabilize the projectile.

 

[William O.]

It appears I have committed a faux pas in my anxiety to find a solution to my difficulties by mentioning those plastic thingies. I did not read the rules carefully enough, so now, I apologise to any I may have offended.
When I finish this post, I shall move over to that other forum which appears to be more in line with my needs.
The information I have gleaned from those who responded to my request and those who have posted previosly in this forum has helped me to eliminate at least some of the difficulties I have been having. After shooting more today, I know that I will be able to drop a deer next week, if the opportunity presents. As for shooting nice tight groups, I'm reminded of that old adage about training mules. "First, you have to know more then the mule."
Again, Thank you. Paul Reuter

I think you will have great success in your endeavors. Please join us again sometime soon, I think that you will find that the use of lead conicals will give you a noticable and definate edge over lighter pistol bullets (those plastic skirted thingies) making your muzzleloader that much more versatile.