Hawken Reproduction

[user 36911]

The Lyman is a very good rifle but it isn't a good copy of a Hawkin. The snail appears to be cut flat instead of the graceful shape rifles like ones made by Uberti are.

Depends on what Great Plains you're talking about.

 

[French Colonial]

The Lyman is a very good rifle but it isn't a good copy of a Hawkin. The snail appears to be cut flat instead of the graceful shape rifles like ones made by Uberti are.

Uberti makes muzzleloading rifles?

 

[user 36911]

Yes, they used to make a pretty good Hawken. I believe Pedersoli makes that gun now. It was the Santa Fe Hawken before Uberti. It was based off a real Hawken but I forgot who's. It can get confusing trying to remember it all.

 

[jonathan butcher]

Rocky Mountain Hawken

I found some.

Pedersoli Rocky Mountain.

Lyman Great Plains Signature Series

 

[user 36911]

Guns were built to shoot. You should go shoot that gun.

 

[jonathan butcher]

Yes.

Guns were built to shoot. You should go shoot that gun.

 

[user 48679]

One of the things that I can not get out of my head is that not every "Mountain Man" in the 1830's carried a Hawken but every one reenacting one today thinks that they can not have anything but.

Most likely there were 50 frontiersmen who carried smoothbores/shotguns for every 2 that toted a J&S Hawken, or an S. Hawken rifle.

Think about the number of frontiersmen vs the real Hawken production numbers.


While J&S Hawken made some flintlock rifles, AFAIK they all had full-length stocks - the half stock Hawken's came with the invention/availability of percussion caps a few years after the company started.

 

[oncewas]

It’s interesting isn’t it when we talk about Hawken rifles the talk always seems to go toward “they really weren’t used that much” or “there really weren’t that many made or carried” and of course “most mountain men carried this or that but not Hawken’s”.

Really? Who cares? Was it used by the fur traders? Most likely not at least not until the latter part of the era. Was it in as wide spread used as we were lead to believe? Most likely not. But it was used by some very important men in helping to discover America. It was a well-made rifle used by some very important people in the west including Jim Bridger, John “Liver-Eating” Johnston and Kit Carson.

 

[LME]

Guns were built to shoot. You should go shoot that gun.

I would be glad to have one! I let mine go and regret it to this day. You will be hard pressed to find a better shooter. I wouldn't worry if there was a slight difference .

 

[French Colonial]

I come upon this mostly as a reenactor, I think the point is for everyone doing the mountain man reenacting thing you do not have to all be carrying the exact same gun, you can carry rifles other than a Hawken and still be correct. Hawkens are neat, if I was doing the mountain man thing I would probably get a Pedersoli signature series Hawken but if I had a half stock flinter I would be just as happy.
Not everyone doing the colonial time period has to carry a Christian Springs rifle nor should they. I'm sure the rifles (or smoothbores) of any time period reflected the individuality of the people carrying them.

 

[French Colonial]

That Rocky Mountain rifle that Mr. Butcher posted a picture of is a fine looking rifle!

 

[LME]

Depends on what Great Plains you're talking about.

The percusion Great Plains rifles are all the same unless they have changes recently or you are thinking of the flint lock version which doesn't have any snail?

 

[user 36911]

The percusion Great Plains rifles are all the same unless they have changes recently or you are thinking of the flint lock version which doesn't have any snail?

Lyman switched who makes the GPR. It started out being made by Investarm and they were nice in the beginning. Over time the workmanship got worse and worse. The factory built guns started to look like kit guns that got no sanding on the wood to the proper shape and to match wood to metal. For over $600 they were an embarrassment. They also were a poor replica of a plains rifle and really poor Hawken replica. I owned 4 of them and was never satisfied.

Lyman finally got fed up and dropped Investarm built guns. Pedersoli builds the GPR now and it is so much better. It's a much much closer replica of the Hawken and workmanship is top notch. Lyman changed the name to Great Plains Signature Series. The price increased to over $900 but I feel it's worth it and I own one. It based off the gun in the OP's 1st post in this thread with a few changes to make it more economical to buy. I believe the OP's gun is around $1400 to buy new. The Lyman version has a plain walnut stock. A 2 5/8" shorter barrel that is blued instead of browned. The the trigger is the same but how it's mounted is different. I don't understand why that was done but it is what it is.

So. it does indeed matter what GPR you're talking about.

 

[jonathan butcher]

I had a GPR .54 a number of years ago, for reasons I don't remember I sold it and regret it to this day. As a shooter that .54 GPR was better than I was capable of holding. From the bench, a tack driver. Am sorry I ever sold it.

 

[Mulemauler]

This is an awesome informative thread, y'all.

Since we're on the subject of authentic reproduction, I have a question of my own.

Which form of ignition was used more on the traditional hawkens? Flint or Cap? How long was the transition period?

If you are referring to the famous Sam and Jake Hawken who shop was in St, Louis there has never been a documented flinter. There have been a couple found but to the best of my knowledge have been proven altered at some point. The family including father and several cousins were all gunsmiths and several of Christian Hawken flintlocks are known.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Ruxton, Brewerton, Captain Marcy, Matthew Field, Bill Hamilton and likely some others mentioned Hawken rifles in their memoirs or chronicles of the early western frontier, although even the well-educated fellows often spelled the name as "Hawkins." Considering that firearms originating from the Hawken shop had HAWKEN stamped clearly on the top barrel flat, we wonder if the Hawken name could have possibly become an eponym, a name originally associated with a specific item but then evolving to apply to a whole class of similar items. Like "Kleenex" or "Levi's" are actually individual brand names, but some people apply them to all brands of similar tissues or blue jeans, respectively. In this case, maybe any heavy, well-made mountain rifle might have been called a "Hawkins." I can't cite the source, but as an example I remember reading an article many years ago that stated, "Kit Carson's Hawken was made by Benjamin Mills of Harrodsburg, Kentucky."

Vaughn Goodwin wrote a very good article about tracking down Tom Tobin's Hawken. You can read the article here: My Hunt for the Tom Toben Rifle The first rifle he found, which had impeccable provenance in a chain of custody leading directly back to Tom Tobin, was called a "Hawken" by its 20th century owner, but Goodwin documented a heavy, half-stocked plains rifle clearly marked "Birringer" on the top flat. This photo is from that article.

Birringer (sometimes spelled "Biringer") was a gunsmith in Leavenworth, Kansas. He built very good guns, but they were not Hawkens, despite what the owner of Tobin's rifle thought. The Kansas State Historical Society has a good article about him online: John Biringer's Gunsmithing Tools Anyway, we wonder if the name "Hawkins" might have been applied to plains or mountain rifles made by other builders "back in the day," too, and not just now.

Tom Toben (or Tobin) surely must have owned several rifles in his lifetime, and old photographs clearly show him holding a Hawken:

Goodwin did eventually locate it, as told in the article linked above.

It seems peculiar to me that so many of us cut the "mountain man era" off at 1840, the year of the last major rendezvous. I understand the reasoning, but several of our most beloved mountain man resources were written years later. Ruxton, Garrard, and Parkman were not even in the mountains until 1846. The mid-20th century artist, writer, and Hawken enthusiast, John Barsotti, wrote and illustrated a two-part article entitled "Mountain Men and Mountain Rifles," published in the 1954 and 1955 issues of Gun Digest. I think this article probably formed an early association between mountain men and Hawken rifles in the minds of 20th century shooters, and the association was cemented by John Baird in his series of articles which formed the book, Hawken Rifles: The Mountain Man's Choice. Baird and Barsotti knew each other. This painting is an example of Mr. Barsotti's work:

There could have very well been some Hawkens at the last few rendezvous. We know for certain that mountain men Mariano Modena, Jim Bridger, and Christopher Carson owned Hawken rifles, but probably after the rendezvous era. Jacob Hawken died in 1849, and the business was carried on by brother Samuel. Rifles stamped S. HAWKEN, such as the Bridger rifle owned by the Montana Historical Society would necessarily be post-1849, and post-rendezvous. This is the Bridger Hawken:

Getting back to the original question from post #1 as I understand it, in my opinion the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken is the best and most authentically-constructed mass marketed Hawken replica. It isn't perfect, but it's the best we have. I would say the Lyman/Pedersoli Great Plains Signature Rifle would be in second place. The only currently available, serious attempt at mass-(re)producing a non-Hawken original plains rifle that I know of is the Tryon, which is not surprisingly also made by Pedersoli:

For kits or parts sets, The Hawken Shop S. Hawken kit looks like the most faithful to the original. The Don Stith parts sets are said to be equally faithful to the originals, at least in the half-stocked versions. The main problem with percussion Hawken fullstocks is that the originals were normally made with a solid patent breech, that is, not hooked. I don't think anybody is casting a solid patent breech appropriate for these rifles now. Even the Stith parts sets for percussion fullstocks are only listed with a hook breech at this time. I know there are advantages to a hooked breech, but we are talking about more authentic replicas, not practical modifications.

For custom builders, the names at the top of the list are Bob Browner, Brant Selb, and John Bergmann. I recently saw a photo of a Hawken by Mike Roby that would put his name up there with the others.

Finally, when questions are posted on this forum, many of the answers will be opinions. Those are mine, and someone else's may be different. We talk about "the Hawken Craze" of the late sixties, seventies, and early eighties, but it never really ended. There are plenty of long-time Hawken nuts alive and well to this day.

Respectfully,

Notchy Bob

 

[stevew]

I sold my my Pedersoli 54 Hawken and have regretted it ever since. It was an absolute beautiful rifle.

 

[TexiKan]

Although the original post specified current rifles, I will say that I am pleased with my Sharon Hawken. Although I built it from a kit around 1979-81, the production rifle looked pretty authentic, in comparison. Likewise, it is a fairly heavy gun in comparison to other Hawken copies.

 

[user 36911]

Although the original post specified current rifles, I will say that I am pleased with my Sharon Hawken. Although I built it from a kit around 1979-81, the production rifle looked pretty authentic, in comparison. Likewise, it is a fairly heavy gun in comparison to other Hawken copies.

I had one of those. Nice gun.

 

[LME]

Lyman switched who makes the GPR. It started out being made by Investarm and they were nice in the beginning. Over time the workmanship got worse and worse. The factory built guns started to look like kit guns that got no sanding on the wood to the proper shape and to match wood to metal. For over $600 they were an embarrassment. They also were a poor replica of a plains rifle and really poor Hawken replica. I owned 4 of them and was never satisfied.

Lyman finally got fed up and dropped Investarm built guns. Pedersoli builds the GPR now and it is so much better. It's a much much closer replica of the Hawken and workmanship is top notch. Lyman changed the name to Great Plains Signature Series. The price increased to over $900 but I feel it's worth it and I own one. It based off the gun in the OP's 1st post in this thread with a few changes to make it more economical to buy. I believe the OP's gun is around $1400 to buy new. The Lyman version has a plain walnut stock. A 2 5/8" shorter barrel that is blued instead of browned. The the trigger is the same but how it's mounted is different. I don't understand why that was done but it is what it is.

So. it does indeed matter what GPR you're talking about.

I went to the Lyman site and all the snails were flat on the side and appeared to be identical to one another? Has Lyman changed? I don't know as I haven't inquired . The one I had was several years ago and it was flat on the side as well?