Hawken rifles at Cody Firearms Museum, Cody, WY

[RonRC]

As a relative novice concerning longrifles (started about 2 years ago and really dug in the last year), I have been curious about statements I read on forums about how modern "Hawken" style rifles really don't replicate the originals. Some speak with some derision about production "Hawken" rifles.
So, I paid special attention at the actual J.S., Samuel, W.S. Hawken rifles that were displayed in the Cody museum. After a day-and-a-half at the museum, I was utterly exhausted, particularly after seeing the 1500 firearm collection lent by the Smithsonian!
Up for discussion are these original Hawken rifles along with one Gemmer. I have added the information labels to the pictured rifles and added more visible numbers to link the rifles to the informational placards.
There are several full stock Hawken rifles. There were no flintlocks exhibited. All seem to have 2 wedge pins whereas all production "Hawken style" files have one, except for the Traditions Great Plains rifle. As you can see, my analysis so far is quite superficial, lacking insight into length of pull, drop, etc.

If anyone wants the original, large, 4 mb photos, please contact me by email and I will be happy to send them.
Ron

 

[galamb]

There are no Flint Hawken's exhibited because there are none known to exist, at least in the Mountain/Plains style represented by all the rifles you have posted pictures of here.

And while many "off the shelf" production rifles with "Hawken" somewhere in the name do not look particularly like the rifles you have posted here, they are representative of other "western" half-stock rifles of the same era.

Below is a pic of an S. Hawken "squirrel, turkey, plain, Missouri" rifle (choose the name you prefer, Sam never threw a "tag" on them). Most offerings by Traditions, T/C, CVA etc look far more like these brass mounted, single keyed, no entry pipe rifles - so in that regard, those "production Hawken's" DO look very close to a Hawken, just not the Plains rifles you have pictured.

 

[nkbj]

My Sheba comes from a long line of stylish forebears. Thanks for the pictures.
Well, time for me to go rustle up some huevos, enchiladas and frijoles for breakfast. See yall fellas later.

 

[Doug Lykins]

I live just a couple of hours away from Cody and still have not paid a visit to the museum.
Interesting, Denver built Hawken rifles. Also, full stock guns are not so rare, more of them than I would have expected.
Nice pictures, thanks for sharing.

 

[azmntman]

I live just a couple of hours away from Cody and still have not paid a visit to the museum.

:slap:

You would be surprised how many folks I know here in Flagstaff that have lived here 20+ years and have never been to the Grand Canyon (80 miles). Now if they were able to see that many nice old guns probably bout half would have gone :grin:

 

[RonRC]

If you want to see the huge Smithsonian collection, you should go soon. They will be there only for 2 or 3 months more.
To access them, just take the elevator by the Gatling gun near the entrance to the firearms section.
Ron

 

[galamb]

Interesting, Denver built Hawken rifles. Also, full stock guns are not so rare, more of them than I would have expected.

Sam went to Denver for a year (about 1860) to try and get in on the gold rush (by a few accounts) but ended up setting up a gun shop. After a year, or thereabouts, Sam decides to return to St. Louis.

The story goes that his Son, William, that had initially taken over the St. Louis shop with his partner Tristam Campbell. In about 1861 he relocates to Denver and takes over the new shop that Sam had set up. J.P. Gemmer takes over the St. Louis shop, keeping it in business until about 1915.

(the timelines and persons involved above are the consensus - but I have seen different accounts as to who owned/ran what/when).

As to the full-stocks. For a while now I have been "researching" the "research" that is out there on the production of St. Louis Hawken rifles. I have almost full specs on 60 rifles with partial descriptions of at least 40 others.

It would appear, of the "surviving" rifles (at least the ones known to the public) that approximately 20% are Full-Stocks - and that doesn't seem to matter whether they were stamped J&S or S Hawken - Sam still made full-stocks, almost 1 of every 5 rifles he turned out.

I have often heard that most J&S were full-stocked and most S were half-stocked - again, the existing examples do not tend to support that (but who knows what all the rifles that have been lost to time looked like).

One other thing that I found really surprising was how prolific the "local" (squirrel/turkey/Missouri) rifles, such as the one I posted above, were (or appear to have been based on surviving rifles).

Again, I am working with a potentially small sample of total production, but amongst surviving rifles fully 23% are of the "local" style and all of them appear to have been made by Sam alone, after Jake's death.

Given the numbers of full-stocks plus the local rifles it "could" lead to the conclusion that barely HALF (55%) of all S. Hawken rifles were of the Plains/Mountain Half-Stock variety. Of course, those may have been the most likely to have been lost/destroyed/wore out - but something to consider.

 

[Alden]

RonRC;
First, congratulations for going to a great and serious museum managed by professionals expert in the field. I know it's no Fur of the Museum Trade in Nebraska but, for that area of Wyoming (as well as the nation and world in my opinion), it'll have to do. Can you describe the parking lot for us by the way? In any case...

Second, what is plain to you is to everyone else who doesn't proclaim themselves an expert. They foam at the keyboard and attack anything and everyone using Hawken in the name of an arm. That is only once they bought something a little longer and heavier-barreled than their T/C, citing relatively minor but broadly accurate cosmetic differences to create major, personal, uproar...

To stand tall some people have to knock others down. What's ironic is no two Hawkens are exactly alike so the self-proclaimed experts' cries of "that's not what a Hawken is" could arguably apply to every single one!

They've been told this, they relent for a while, and then the resentment comes back and only they have a, and can use the name, Hawken.

Don't be troubled. Thanks for the pics by the way -- fine work and appreciated effort.

Hey, I don't 'spose you've ever seen the cluttered racks on stilts of rusted guns at the roadside Fur of the Museum Trade, have ya?

 

[RonRC]

I have not been to the Fur of the Museum Trade, of the Trade of the Fur Museum, or the Museum of the Trade Fur. :wink:
I had considered going there on this trip, but wanted to visit the Smithsonian collection before it left Cody.
The experience at the Cody museum was confirmation of how little I knew and how much I need and want to learn. To be honest, this thread is self-serving in that I hoped it would be an educational tool for me. And that it has become. :applause:
Thank you all for the valuable information!
Ron

 

[RonRC]

I should add that I had to dodge horse patties in the parking lot. There is an area where you can get a horseback ride and it is situated just off the South parking lot.
The Firearms Museum is just one of 4 museums that are adjacent to each other. There is a Natural History Museum, a Plains Indian Museum, and a Buffalo Bill Museum. I never did get to any of the others. That will happen on the next visit.
I did enjoy :stir: by telling people in Cody that Buffalo Bill Cody is buried just a short distance from my home in Golden, CO. That still seems to be a bone of contention.
Ron

 

[Doug Lykins]

This has me starting to think a little, I gotta get out more! I live within 2-4 hours of, Green River Rendezvous, Ft Bridger Rendezvous, Fur Trade Museum at Chadron, NE, Mtn Man Museum at Pinedale, WY as well as the Cody Museum.
I was at the Chadron Museum once about 35 years ago and stop by Ft Bridger maybe 10 years ago. Time for some weekend trips.

 

[Richard Kemp]

Thanks for the picture collection of Hawken rifles. I have a Sharon Hawken kit built by someone else. It needs to be "slimmed down". A good project for this winter. Your pictures will help. BTW I went to school in Golden and can vouch for the location of Cody's grave.

 

[RonRC]

If you went to university in Golden, then I know exactly where you were educated - the very place I work. :grin:
Ron

 

[Alden]

Golden is one picture-postcard view from outside looking in.

Geez, are there other offerings at The Buffalo Bill Center? I hadn't noticed... LOL

 

[Chris Nolin]

I'd like to hear more about the parking lot at the Cody Firearms Museum, as well. From what I hear, parking lots are the best way to ascertain the quality of the museum one is about to enter. To wit, there was also poop in the parking lot of the National Firearms Museum when I visited. And as expected, it was awesome, fabulous, great, serious, and superlative, as well! On the other hand, clean, weed-free parking lots are typically reserved for roadside attractions only, I've been told. :wink:

 

[RonRC]

I find the combination of your screen name, Lapoudre, and the fact that you are in Ft. Collins, quite apropos!
I hope you are not at the mercy of the high water of the river.
Ron

 

[Chris Nolin]

Hi Ron, and thanks! No flooding issues where I live (Old Town), but we haven't been able to raft for more than a week now. Looks like this weekend we'll be able to get out there again safely.

 

[crockett]

If it was a University you must like to dig around a lot.

 

[Spikebuck]

All seem to have 2 wedge pins whereas all production "Hawken style" files have one, except for the Traditions Great Plains rifle.

The Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken has two wedge keys as well.

Thanks for posting these pics. Appreciate it greatly! I can't imagine seeing a 1500 gun collection! I'll just have to settle for the rusty ones when I visit the Fur of the Museum Trade in July. After my visit I'm sending pictures to Alden so he doesn't miss the place too much. :wink:

 

[Alden]

I THINK my production CVA Mountain Rifle also has two keys...




...as do BOTH Pedersoli Hawkens.

Oh, and thanks Spikebuck but I'm pretty observant and have a decent enough memory though I do discount arguments of limited-experience newbies...