Hawken Rifles, What's All The Hoopla?!

[Snake Pleskin]

The Jonathan Browning Mountain rifle is not a copy of the first rifle built by John Moses Browning. His real first gun was the single shot 1878 and was a cartridge gun. Jonathan Browning, John M. Browning's father, was also a gunsmith and had his own designs and inventions, but not a Hawken style gun. The Jonathan Browning Mountain rifle is certainly not an exact copy of the original Hawken but is close in many respects. And yes it is a pretty much "machine made" gun; hand making a gun like the Hawken brothers did is completely impractical for a commercial success for a company like Browning. You certainly don't have to like it, but I and many others really the Jonathan Browning Mountain rifle. Obviously it was not liked by enough people because Browning only offered it for sale for about 10 years and then discontinued it.

I think it was expensive for the time and hard to get. Browning did sell everyone they made. Its a shame it did not last longer.

 

[Ozark Mtn Muzzleloader]

I found this article & I thought it might interest some folks on this thread:
http://grrw.org/the-heyday-of-the-hawken/

 

[user 53891]

The Hawken is just a name made popular in the 20th century by hollywood. No better or worse than any other long gun of it's day.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

The Hawken is just a name made popular in the 20th century by hollywood. No better or worse than any other long gun of it's day.

I think the Hawken was a particular style/type and those made by The Hawke brothers were noted for quality. Just like anything else, some things were made better than others, even back then!

 

[Ozark Mtn Muzzleloader]

Speaking personally, I believe there is an allure to the “Hawken” style rifle. Obviously its actual historical role in the fur trade era is overstated, no one disputes this. Obviously it benefited from the Bicentennial & surrounding Hollywood films featuring it. Obviously it has benefited from larger production outfits producing rifles on a larger scale that attempted to capture the spirit of the originals (though certainly not accurate reproductions, I don’t believe they were ever meant to be). These production “Hawkens” (or maybe “Hawken” with a lower case H is more appropriate?) allowed many without great financial means or technical gun building skill to enter the alluring world of the Rendezvous & personally, I’m glad those people were able to enter the sport (I myself am one of these folks). So while I totally understand folks being burned out on all things Hawken or even hawken, that doesn’t take away from the romanticism (real or imagined) that comes from using a Hawken or even (GASP!) a hawken. Personally I like & actually collect T/C side lock rifles, I know the utter disdain some have for them, & I even share some of it. However, I like them because I grew up in a world where entry level traditional Muzzleloaders were all lower quality & imported (usually) hawken rifles. However, T/C’s were made in the USA, had quality barrels, good (if not PC) sights which are important to hunters, & good strong percussion locks (their flintlocks do not seem to be as highly regarded though towards their end they seem to have been good). Anyways, I don’t know how this post ended up being so long. Thanks if you managed to stick with it to the end.
http://www.namlhunt.com/ml-renegade-rescue.html

 

[tenngun]

I have looked at a Browning rifle that was modeled on a Hawken and I have to disagree with many of the postings that it is not a good copy. I think it is an excellent copy and but for minor details that most people could care less about, if you hung it on the wall next to an original it would be difficult for 95% of people to know the difference. When you need a micrometer to measure barrel width, and stock dimensions, angles etc, you might as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, IMHO .Every Hawken made was different, since they were hand made. They followed a particular theme in their style, that's all. Hooked breech, slant breech, long tang, long trigger plate, Heavy barrel ,light barrel, full stock, half stock, none were the same etc. If that Browning rifle had been in S Hawken's original shop , it would have sold in NY min! (IMHO) I wish I had been there with a wagon full of Lyman GPR.s, I would of been a happy sales person.!

No one has a perfect copy, however there is always the ‘more authentic then thou’ syndrome

 

[Grenadier1758]

Considering that no two rifles from the Hawken Brothers' shop were perfect copies of another Hawken rifle, it was always obvious that they were made to the same pattern with subtle differences and with many similarities. These were very good rifles for their application. Rarity made them a bit mystical and some hype by promoters of western expansion gave them stature far beyond their basic parts.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Considering that no two rifles from the Hawken Brothers' shop were perfect copies of another Hawken rifle, it was always obvious that they were made to the same pattern with subtle differences and with many similarities. These were very good rifles for their application. Rarity made them a bit mystical and some hype by promoters of western expansion gave them stature far beyond their basic parts.

Completely…look at the price of a Hawken, compared to a mass produced Leman…there’s a reason Hawken got that price…

 

[Snake Pleskin]

No one has a perfect copy, however there is always the ‘more authentic then thou’ syndrome

yes, I agree

 

[Rifleman1776]

Certainly, the modern rifles that are called "Hawkens" don't deserve the hoopla. They function well and are reasonably accurate on target, but they certainly don't deserve to be called a "Hawken".

This is a very interesting and informative thread. Wat Grenadier says is very true. But, even with the 'hoopla' from modern not-so-good reproductions the reputation has grown and been reinforced. I just finished reading a series of very good fiction books based on the buckskin era through post-CW. The Hawken rifle was frequently mentioned. In fact, overmentioned, there just could not have been as many used in the mountains as these (fiction) stories suggested.

 

[mushka]

I think that the Hawkin rifle would be a rife built by the Hawkin brothers. Other guns might mimick them but they wouldn't be Hawkins.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I think that the Hawkin rifle would be a rife built by the Hawkin brothers. Other guns might mimick them but they wouldn't be Hawkins.

I agree. If the Hawken bros. did not build it, it would be a "Hawken Style", but not a true Hawken! IMHO

 

[Widows Son]

Hoopla I haven’t seen that word in a long time. And it is an interesting and entertaining topic.

Like the majority of Old West history, (and all history), it’s full of mythology and romance and legend that grew from a core of actual facts. The Hawken rifle was a well made, reliable and suitable-for-purpose firearm. And it was priced accordingly! It wasn’t within a working man’s budget. In the context of the western fur trade era, it wasn’t common. It became famous and popularised in the later stories. The half-stocked long gun was an early 19th century evolution and the Hawken has become the poster child. The hoopla for it is due to cinema and the marketing deriving from it. Life imitates art.

I think smoothbores were much more common during the classic Rocky Mountain fur trade than we realise.

 

[SlidePicker]

Back in the '70s, "Hawken" style rifles were not only a bit shorter and handier than long rifles, they had a distinctive look that I liked. They were the first commercial muzzleloaders to offer big bores for PRB shooting. .50 caliber got a big boost from "Jeremiah Johnson." Then I read about some made in .54 and even .58 caliber. This was before the "Maxi-Ball" sort of projectiles came along. Previously I didn't know anything bigger than .45 caliber made to shoot PRBs. Magazine authors talked about shooting the .54s and .58s with huge powder charges like 150-200 grains. Those of us with "Magnumitis" were intrigued with that. I thought I wanted a big boomer. Then I learned about possibilities of .62, .69, and .72 caliber rifles! Daydreamed, but never got one. When I finally got a muzzleloader in 1980 it was a Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber, which I still have and like very much.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I think that the Hawkin rifle would be a rife built by the Hawkin brothers. Other guns might mimick them but they wouldn't be Hawkins.

Unless they were built by John Gemmer, Tristan Campbell or Hoffman who bought the shop and the stamps from Sam Hawken.

 

[Ozark Mtn Muzzleloader]

I would also submit that the golden age highly embellished long rifles were no more common in historical times than a real Hawken. Both were well beyond the means of the average man of their times. Frankly, we romanticize the exceptional not the common. We don’t fantasize about plain Jane guns, Chevrolet Chevettes, or ugly women. We fantasize about Golden age long rifles/Hawkens, Corvettes, & super models.

 

[tenngun]

Unless they were built by John Gemmer, Tristan Campbell or Hoffman who bought the shop and the stamps from Sam Hawken.

I recall a Halloween story that n a ml magazine. A modren traditional shooter is out in the deer woods when he meets a man in the most HC outfit he has seen.
The guy turns out to be a ghost who helps him take a deer.
Before the man finds out he is a ghost the ghost tells him he has a nice gun. The living man brags ‘ it’s a Hawken I built my self. The ghost ask him,’you a Hawken? No I’m A Smith. The Ghost says well then it ain’t a Hawken, but it’s a good looking gun any how’

 

[Grenadier1758]

Sam was unhappy when John Gemmer used the S. Hawken stamps on rifles that John built. But the sale to Gemmer included the rights to use the stamps. Those stamps were sold to Art Ressel, the original owner of the 20th century Hawken Shop.

 

[springfield art]

Bob Woodfill's book on the Hawken history is a good read; NMLRA book sales has it for $50 + shpg.

 

[springfield art]

Well, the Hawken is a distinctly original American invention made to fill a need of the unknown rugged conditions west of the "River". The history of knowing many of the well known trappers and warriors who owned one also added to the popularity. Before the Hawken, firearms were more or less variations of rifle styles which originated in England and europe, some with a distinct regional flair (think such and such school). They work -

They cost a lot more, kind of like your neighbor who has a Mercedes or BMW and like me are driving an older small Ford!