Yes I realize this thread is two years old but maybe this will get read. Question: Why would Pedersoli rifles, specifically the Missouri and Rocky Mountain Hawken not meet the clubs standard? Made in Italy or design?
Hawken Rifles, What's All The Hoopla?!
- Thread starter Dispatch
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
My response was with respect to two different organizations that shoot traditional muzzleloading firearms.
@Sage1, my reenacting unit as seen in my avatar is representative of a British Grenadier company in the French and Indian War. Our King's muskets would have been of the Long Land Pattern and the Pedersoli muskets are Short Land Pattern muskets which did not show up on American shores until the American War of Independance. That's why the Pedersoli Muskets don't meet our standard, but we do allow them. We didn't use rifles in the grenadier company so any rifle and especially percussion locks would not be allowed.
Now we can talk about my traditional muzzle loading rifle gun club. We are the J P Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club and the Pedersoli Missouri and Rocky Mountain rifles, all Traditional Muzzleloading rifles meet the club's standard. We are the host club for the Hawken Classic event. Traditional rifles are welcome. This year (2024) we are in downtown St. Charles and live fire is not allowed by the city.
@Sage1, my reenacting unit as seen in my avatar is representative of a British Grenadier company in the French and Indian War. Our King's muskets would have been of the Long Land Pattern and the Pedersoli muskets are Short Land Pattern muskets which did not show up on American shores until the American War of Independance. That's why the Pedersoli Muskets don't meet our standard, but we do allow them. We didn't use rifles in the grenadier company so any rifle and especially percussion locks would not be allowed.
Now we can talk about my traditional muzzle loading rifle gun club. We are the J P Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club and the Pedersoli Missouri and Rocky Mountain rifles, all Traditional Muzzleloading rifles meet the club's standard. We are the host club for the Hawken Classic event. Traditional rifles are welcome. This year (2024) we are in downtown St. Charles and live fire is not allowed by the city.
I agree.
Thank you Grenadier1758.
Mike in FL
50 Cal.
Me too
Fair enough…but Hawken architecture mimicked Harper’s Ferry guns which mimicked English sporting rifles….serious durable guns used a very along way from the silk stockings store and the powdered wig parlor.
Like Glocks , Hawkens get a pass in “the gun universe “ because they do/did it best….foregoing the beauty contest part of the competition….
and thus holds weight when asked about hoopla…
stephenprops1
45 Cal.
They say, "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder." I like many historical time periods. I find many different styles of muzzleloaders beautiful. I do like the American Colonial rifles, and I like the Hawken style rifles too.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2019
- Messages
- 8,509
- Reaction score
- 10,001
IDK, I guess it's just the sleek simplicity of the final development of the percussion cap design. I have an old Uberti and a Lyman GPR and like the caliber (mine's .54). I think the scholarship offered by Bob Fill and others has had a lot to do with the popularity.
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2005
- Messages
- 1,678
- Reaction score
- 4,280
And the man who drives a Jaguar asks - Corvettes, What's All The Hoopla?!
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
Hawken barrels may have been shorter than eastern rifles, but they added even more weight because of the much thicker barrels.
stephenprops1
45 Cal.
The Hawken and other great plains rifle designs came about because of the bigger game out west. Lewis & Clark reported that they were going to need larger caliber rifles due to bison, grizzly bears, and such.
Mike in FL
50 Cal.
I don't reckon a 54 Hawken shoots and better than a 54 long rifle. Part of their appeal might have been that they were more sturdy.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 4,624
- Reaction score
- 8,347
Too bad the English Sporting Rifle never really caught on in the US… excellent balance of power and weight in a simple and elegant design.
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
Being shorter they would have been easier to manage on a horse.
But there were plenty of other long guns that were as short as the Hawken and Dimmick rifles.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,115
- Reaction score
- 3,069
Never became interested in the original Hawken gun.
The modern Hawken knockoffs, especially the TC models, with their very shallow rifling, are not accurate, especially when patched round balls are fired.
My current "Hawken" is a Navy Arms model. i remodeled the butt plate with a Sawzall and had he barrel reamed to .54 caliber with one turn 1/66"rifling and rounded grooves.
The modern Hawken knockoffs, especially the TC models, with their very shallow rifling, are not accurate, especially when patched round balls are fired.
My current "Hawken" is a Navy Arms model. i remodeled the butt plate with a Sawzall and had he barrel reamed to .54 caliber with one turn 1/66"rifling and rounded grooves.
Well there ya go. I’ll work on tightening up these groups. Three through the same hole yesterday with my TC .50 and std sights.
Attachments
I would beg to differ with you. Although I no longer have my TC, when I did have it I won numerous matches. I rarely placed below third in any club matches and beat many more expensive guns.
Semmerling
32 Cal
The answer to your question may be as follows....
One shot and your rifle then becomes a club, swung by holding the barrel end and striking anything else that remains a threat. Many of us have seen early rifles that may have shot very well but were retired after a cracked at the wrist of the stock. This only happens, in the majority, for one reason (along with poor wood selection) and that reason is clubbing damage. One may not necessarily need a Hawken to do this, but the vast majority of period rifles were not going to cut it as a club. Interesting note, in John Baldwin's seminal work "Indian War Clubs" we can see that Indians recognized that the resulting damage from mountain men's "clubs" was considerably more devasting than was to be found from any of their clubs. They copied the stock shape in their "rifle clubs" not realizing the added mass from a heavy barrel was the real difference.
The Hawken rifle was produced for people that needed heavy caliber performance and heavy stock performance. In the bell curve of required post shot performance as a weapon, the Hawken is 2 standard deviations to the right, right along side those that actually needed to club their way out of trouble.
One shot and your rifle then becomes a club, swung by holding the barrel end and striking anything else that remains a threat. Many of us have seen early rifles that may have shot very well but were retired after a cracked at the wrist of the stock. This only happens, in the majority, for one reason (along with poor wood selection) and that reason is clubbing damage. One may not necessarily need a Hawken to do this, but the vast majority of period rifles were not going to cut it as a club. Interesting note, in John Baldwin's seminal work "Indian War Clubs" we can see that Indians recognized that the resulting damage from mountain men's "clubs" was considerably more devasting than was to be found from any of their clubs. They copied the stock shape in their "rifle clubs" not realizing the added mass from a heavy barrel was the real difference.
The Hawken rifle was produced for people that needed heavy caliber performance and heavy stock performance. In the bell curve of required post shot performance as a weapon, the Hawken is 2 standard deviations to the right, right along side those that actually needed to club their way out of trouble.
Antelope Pete
40 Cal
Rifles falling from a horse or a horse rolling or falling on the rifle would be common ways to break a wrist. Maybe the most common.
