Heeled bullets for cap and ball revolvers

[BillinOregon]

This seems to have been a pretty quiet subject area until Kaido Ojamaa came along with his large-meplat bullets with heeled lower bands to allow them to be seated relatively straight before ramming home in percussion revolvers. Not terribly revolutionary, but his was a well-publicized, practical and very functional answer to coming up with a conical projectile that delivers both accuracy and maximum terminal efficiency out of a cap and ball sixgun. There are a number of such bullet designs out there now, and I was looking at Youtuber "Omnivore's" Accurate Mold # 45-225L as a good candidate for loading in an Uberti Remington New Model Army clone. Omnivore also has a video on heeling regular .452 bullets by sizing the lower shank in a smaller than chamber diameter die. This started the wheels creaking in my head, and I bet I could use a .446 RCBS sizer die to "heel down" the two lower bands on a Lee 452-255 RF so that it would seat. That bullet is .639 long; the Eras Gone Kerr is .679.
Anyone wandered down this path? That Accurate mold is tempting.

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=45-225L

 

[nkbj]

Hey Bill.
I started using beveled base bullets in my 1861 in the mid 70's. They were made by running a 3/8" drill into a Lee 9mm aluminum block mold to make a smooth sided round nosed design and then rolloing a bevel onto the base. What I used for that was a couple of pieces of counter top material samples. They had a wood grain effect on the back sides that was intended to help the adhesive stick better when the counter tops were made. That wood grain effect held the bullets in place while I rolled the bevel. Still got the 1861 and the bullets. They shoot absolutely awesomely accurate on top of a compressed charge of FFFg.
After that I started shooting .44's and using off the shelf .45 pistol molds. I just partially size them on the tail end to make the bullet bases to have just a little bit of clearance to slip into the chambers. Like reloading for any revolver it's a matter of load development and which mold works better for your needs. Of course the dimensions on a lot of reproduction .44's don't give you much room for anything but round ball but some do. A few years ago I got a .36 caliber 1858 Pietta revamped to .41 so now I'm doing the same thing with molds sold for .41 caliber cartridges.

I'd like to have another one set up to use .43 diameter but well, then I'd just have to go shopping for more molds!

 

[BillinOregon]

Very interesting -- and I think that 1858 in .41 is a pretty righteous idea!

 

[M. De Land]

This seems to have been a pretty quiet subject area until Kaido Ojamaa came along with his large-meplat bullets with heeled lower bands to allow them to be seated relatively straight before ramming home in percussion revolvers. Not terribly revolutionary, but his was a well-publicized, practical and very functional answer to coming up with a conical projectile that delivers both accuracy and maximum terminal efficiency out of a cap and ball sixgun. There are a number of such bullet designs out there now, and I was looking at Youtuber "Omnivore's" Accurate Mold # 45-225L as a good candidate for loading in an Uberti Remington New Model Army clone. Omnivore also has a video on heeling regular .452 bullets by sizing the lower shank in a smaller than chamber diameter die. This started the wheels creaking in my head, and I bet I could use a .446 RCBS sizer die to "heel down" the two lower bands on a Lee 452-255 RF so that it would seat. That bullet is .639 long; the Eras Gone Kerr is .679.
Anyone wandered down this path? That Accurate mold is tempting.

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=45-225L

I've recently been experimenting with a 200 grain .45 ACP heeled bullet that is working quite well in my Walker.
I size the base down a bit to just snug up on the chamber taper and makes a good seal. Shot pretty good at 25 yards with I think I remember was 45 grains of 3F which is going to need some tweeking but for a first try I was impressed with.
Upper group was was ACP bullet and lower balls. The shot to the left was my faulty trigger release.
All shot from sand bags on a bench with factory sights at 25 yards.

 

[BillinOregon]

Those are encouraging first-try results -- and at 25 yards! Please post again when you have had a chance to tweak the load. I wonder what fps you are getting. That bullet has to be moving along pretty briskly with 45 grains of FFFg under it.

 

[M. De Land]

Those are encouraging first-try results -- and at 25 yards! Please post again when you have had a chance to tweak the load. I wonder what fps you are getting. That bullet has to be moving along pretty briskly with 45 grains of FFFg under it.

I will set up the chronograph in the future when the best load is worked out with each projectile but the next thing needing fixed on this gun is a steel front sight replacement with a dovetail and while I'm at it will make a front end loading lever latch.
I may ream the chambers a bit deeper also but not yet as they seem to be working fine with ball or bullet in factory configuration and are very uniform in diameter.

 

[Pete453]

Bill,
What you're talking about doing should work out fine. I bored out an old sizer die to try this with but too many irons in the fire. Keep us up to speed on your experiments, please

 

[Bad Karma]

I shoot bullets 3 to 1 over ball. I use primarily these three designs in revolvers with chambers bored to at least .002” over groove diameter. Results have been very good.

 

[BillinOregon]

BK: Thanks for the links to the Accurate molds. Very wise idea having chambers bored .002 over groove diameter. Who did this work for you?
Here is the Arsenal 45-230 WFN, the Eras Gone Kerr, and the Lee 452-255

 

[Bad Karma]

BK: Thanks for the links to the Accurate molds. Very wise idea having chambers bored .002 over groove diameter. Who did this work for you?
Here is the Arsenal 45-230 WFN, the Eras Gone Kerr, and the Lee 452-255

I’ve done it myself with a chucking reamer and my drill press. I’ve also had it done by various gunsmiths. Charlie Hahn is very reliable and reasonably priced.

I’ve used those Kerr bullets and since my loading ram is modified for flat nosed bullets the kerrs become flat nosed after ramming. They’re a really good design for c+b revolvers.

 

[M. De Land]

I've recently been experimenting with a 200 grain .45 ACP heeled bullet that is working quite well in my Walker.
I size the base down a bit to just snug up on the chamber taper and makes a good seal. Shot pretty good at 25 yards with I think I remember was 45 grains of 3F which is going to need some tweeking but for a first try I was impressed with.
Upper group was was ACP bullet and lower balls. The shot to the left was my faulty trigger release.
All shot from sand bags on a bench with factory sights at 25 yards.

I'll know more when I get some chronograph readings and game kills but am thinking this bullet is going to be very good for a balance of weight, trajectory and penetration with black powder velocity in the shorter .44 chambers although the Walker could use some more weight .

 

[M. De Land]

I'll know more when I get some chronograph readings and game kills but am thinking this bullet is going to be very good for a balance of weight, trajectory and penetration with black powder velocity in the shorter .44 chambers although the Walker could use some more weight .

I shoot some 260 grain RCBS .45 cal Kieth bullets in my Bisley Ruger that are not heeled bullets but I'm wondering if I could give them the same base reduction treatment as the ACP bullet and get them to work in the Walker? My curiosity is getting the best of me again so I'll check the feasibility of the notion.
Now that would be a moose slammer at up to about 50 yards me thinks ! No one in their right mind would go after a brown in the alders/willows with the load though.

 

[Pete453]

I shoot bullets 3 to 1 over ball. I use primarily these three designs in revolvers with chambers bored to at least .002” over groove diameter. Results have been very good.

Bad Karma,
That's still the best looking, and shooting 1860 on the Internet. At least until I can find time to fit the blued trigger guard and nice walnut grips to my Uberti. Then it'll be 2nd best looking!

 

[Bad Karma]

Bad Karma,
That's still the best looking, and shooting 1860 on the Internet. At least until I can find time to fit the blued trigger guard and nice walnut grips to my Uberti. Then it'll be 2nd best looking!

Dang it! Now I gotta step up my game! (Where do you find the blue trigger guard? ;-)

 

[Bad Karma]

I shoot some 260 grain RCBS .45 cal Kieth bullets in my Bisley Ruger that are not heeled bullets but I'm wondering if I could give them the same base reduction treatment as the ACP bullet and get them to work in the Walker? My curiosity is getting the best of me again so I'll check the feasibility of the notion.
Now that would be a moose slammer at up to about 50 yards me thinks ! No one in their right mind would go after a brown in the alders/willows with the load though.

I’m wondering if “right mind” truly applies to anyone wanting to shake hands with a brownie in the alders and willows in any case? I understand, and if I were a young man, I’d be interested in that game, sometimes you have to spit in the devils eye, just to see which way he’ll jump…

 

[M. De Land]

I’m wondering if “right mind” truly applies to anyone wanting to shake hands with a brownie in the alders and willows in any case? I understand, and if I were a young man, I’d be interested in that game, sometimes you have to spit in the devils eye, just to see which way he’ll jump…

I say that because the bear hang out very often in the same areas one hunts moose or are on your kill contesting ownership very soon after words smelling the blood and guts from field dressing.
Cutting up, game bagging, packing and treeing a mature bull moose is a full days work for two guys especially when you drop them about dark!
I've gravitated to raft hunting in my old age and don't have many seasons left in the old body but it sure has been a good ride thus far.

 

[Pete453]

Dang it! Now I gotta step up my game! (Where do you find the blue trigger guard? ;-)

It came from VTI, it's a trigger guard for the Uberti Richards/Mason conversion revolvers. Or Richards, can't remember, but if you look through the parts list, you'll see it. It's a little long, but the backstrap might need tweaking too. I need to pull the brass one and compare them. Lots of irons in the fire...

 

[Bad Karma]

It came from VTI, it's a trigger guard for the Uberti Richards/Mason conversion revolvers. Or Richards, can't remember, but if you look through the parts list, you'll see it. It's a little long, but the backstrap might need tweaking too. I need to pull the brass one and compare them. Lots of irons in the fire...

Thanks Pete, thought that might be the case…

 

[Smokerr]

I’m wondering if “right mind” truly applies to anyone wanting to shake hands with a brownie in the alders and willows in any case? I understand, and if I were a young man, I’d be interested in that game, sometimes you have to spit in the devils eye, just to see which way he’ll jump…

Not me, even when I was a youngster and really good with a hand gun. I have read too many cases of a guy not getting a shot off even when ready in close quarters. One guy could not even get his pepper spray out of its holster and he had a bit of warning.

You really need to see one in person to get how wickedly fast those can move. I left them alone and they left me alone.

I carried a 41 magnum when fishing and it was mostly to scare a bear away. Mostly the plan was to climb a tree and then only shoot a Grizzly from up in the tree if it would not go away. Plenty of spare ammo carried to fill one full of holes. I figured a couple of rounds fired to see if it would leave first.

My brother and I got a moose at Dusk one year. Wound up skinning it out with our back side to a creek in a swamp. That was one scary night of gutting and skinning. We put all the rounds we have left in my gun as it had a raised scope with iron sights under (just for that purpose). Getting the moose was a tale of bad hunting on our part, but we really had no place to go and we planned on fighting it out. Next morning when we got back to the boat the CB radio had a guy reporting he shot his moose about 1-2 miles away from where we were and a Grizzly took it away from him.

Sans our sucky position, we would have backed out as well but with a Grizzly you never know. I know of a couple of cases where people camping did it all right and a Grizzly came in and tore them up and killed people.

These days pepper spray is the preferred tool of choice.

 

[M. De Land]

Not me, even when I was a youngster and really good with a hand gun. I have read too many cases of a guy not getting a shot off even when ready in close quarters. One guy could not even get his pepper spray out of its holster and he had a bit of warning.

You really need to see one in person to get how wickedly fast those can move. I left them alone and they left me alone.

I carried a 41 magnum when fishing and it was mostly to scare a bear away. Mostly the plan was to climb a tree and then only shoot a Grizzly from up in the tree if it would not go away. Plenty of spare ammo carried to fill one full of holes. I figured a couple of rounds fired to see if it would leave first.

My brother and I got a moose at Dusk one year. Wound up skinning it out with our back side to a creek in a swamp. That was one scary night of gutting and skinning. We put all the rounds we have left in my gun as it had a raised scope with iron sights under (just for that purpose). Getting the moose was a tale of bad hunting on our part, but we really had no place to go and we planned on fighting it out. Next morning when we got back to the boat the CB radio had a guy reporting he shot his moose about 1-2 miles away from where we were and a Grizzly took it away from him.

Sans our sucky position, we would have backed out as well but with a Grizzly you never know. I know of a couple of cases where people camping did it all right and a Grizzly came in and tore them up and killed people.

These days pepper spray is the preferred tool of choice.

I guess that is true of non shooters but I'll still take my S&W 629 four inch with Kieth loads over any bear spray made in a real deal bear fight and not a bluff charge .
Expect any government officials to argue this point though as statistics seem to dictate to them .