HELP!!! Breech Issue?

[Smokey Plainsman]

I bought a new Pedersoli An IX Gendarmerie pistol and here is the breech face:

As you can clearly see, they machines a groove in the breech face where the vent hole is. Maybe the plug was too long and wouldn’t line up with the vent?

What issues does this pose? It will be tough to clean I know that much. Is it a safety issue?

I got this gun for a great price. Pedersoli loves to pull shoddy stuff like this with their products. But is it a big issue?

Thanks!

 

[PathfinderNC]

I have an antique flintlock pistol from the mid 1700’s or so with the same breechplug face groove.

 

[FlinterNick]

That’s pretty common. I have a navy arms charleville with a similar groove. What you may want to do is polish up the area if you can, it will foul out quickly

 

[Rifleman1776]

As said, that is pretty common. Others will claim it is poor workmanship. I would like to see someone like Dave Persons chime in on this.

 

[rchas]

It is done to move the vent (and therefore the lock) as far back as possible. Modern barrels tend to be threaded much deeper than original barrels for liability reasons. If you put the vent in front of the breech plug, the lock will be moved farther forward on the barrel--which throws the architecture of the stock off. Being able to line up the flash fence on a flintlock with the end of the barrel has a subtle but important effect on the appearance of a gun.

It's recommended by one or two books. I have done it on some rifles, and not on others. I have seen no difference in ignition, nor have I seen any corrosion in the breech threads; which tends to the the primary complaint of those who don't recommend the practice.

 

[FlinterNick]

It is done to move the vent (and therefore the lock) as far back as possible. Modern barrels tend to be threaded much deeper than original barrels for liability reasons. If you put the vent in front of the breech plug, the lock will be moved farther forward on the barrel--which throws the architecture of the stock off. Being able to line up the flash fence on a flintlock with the end of the barrel has a subtle but important effect on the appearance of a gun.

It's recommended by one or two books. I have done it on some rifles, and not on others. I have seen no difference in ignition, nor have I seen any corrosion in the breech threads; which tends to the the primary complaint of those who don't recommend the practice.

I’ve seen original breech plugs with grooves and chamfers.

The implication of it not being safe is that gases could escape through the breech area, however if the breech is threaded correctly and they’re in there tight, it’s not really a safety issue at all.

I’ve seen some breechs that were accidentally drilled clean through the other side and corrected with an anti fouling vent, basically a vent that is closed off and removed for cleaning.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Why would it be difficult to clean?
Don't you just use hot water?

 

[ronaldrothb49]

You see this a lot especially on factory made guns. This is why I build my own. There is a reason why the threads in the breech are bottom tapped and the breech plug is supposed to seal the bore. Personally not something I would shoot.

 

[64Springer]

Totally normal breech face.

Bust out those big pipe cleaners.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Personally not something I would shoot.

Lol....why?

 

[springfield art]

I bought a new Pedersoli An IX Gendarmerie pistol and here is the breech face:

View attachment 216039

As you can clearly see, they machines a groove in the breech face where the vent hole is. Maybe the plug was too long and wouldn’t line up with the vent?

What issues does this pose? It will be tough to clean I know that much. Is it a safety issue?

I got this gun for a great price. Pedersoli loves to pull shoddy stuff like this with their products. But is it a big issue?

Thanks!

'Shoddy' and 'Pedersoli' don't belong in the same sentence!

 

[ronaldrothb49]

Lol....why?

Check out some of the books on building muzzleloaders particularly the sections on installing a breech plug. They will all say the same thing. The face of the breech plug needs to be seated against the end of the bore with transfer all the way around it in order to seal the threads. When you file or in this case break that seal by drilling across the face of the breech plug you break that seal allowing the gas into the threads. This will allow a build up of corrosion and depending on how much you shoot could erode the threads allowing those gases to escape out the back of the barrel. Stop and think what is behind that breech if it fails.

 

[64Springer]

Maybe we can ask the guy who's shooting the gun in 300 years.

Cuzz that's how long it's going to take to erode those threads.

My 200 year old 20ga barrel has a breech just like the OP's and the shotgun gets used and is still in one piece.

But just in case, where's my bubble wrap.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I ran into the same situation when I built my 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle.

In theory and with 3/8" to 1/2" threads the breech plug should seal all the way around as the breech plug contacts the bottom of the threads of the barrel.

I asked some of the most experienced builders what to do with my almost 3/4" of threads. The barrel is tapered. Setting it back would leave unsightly gaps along the barrel. The near universal response was to follow the known practice of notching the breech plug and dishing the face of the breech plug. I would still have contact all along the circumference of the breech plug except for the notch. Below the notch I would have about 1/2" of tight threads sealing the breech in place. Established practice won out. I'll leave a note for my great grandson to check it out.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Check out some of the books on building muzzleloaders particularly the sections on installing a breech plug. They will all say the same thing. The face of the breech plug needs to be seated against the end of the bore with transfer all the way around it in order to seal the threads. When you file or in this case break that seal by drilling across the face of the breech plug you break that seal allowing the gas into the threads. This will allow a build up of corrosion and depending on how much you shoot could erode the threads allowing those gases to escape out the back of the barrel. Stop and think what is behind that breech if it fails.

You are of course presuming the plug is gas tight up against the bore without actually knowing.
Don't worry about it, your over thinking it.
How do I know you are over thinking it?
Because no one has been in ER with a breech plug stuck up their nose!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks gang, I was wrong to worry it seems. The gun shoots like a million bucks and I didn’t die!

 

[64Springer]

That's a bonus.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

You are of course presuming the plug is gas tight up against the bore without actually knowing.
Don't worry about it, your over thinking it.
How do I know you are over thinking it?
Because no one has been in ER with a breech plug stuck up their nose!

Actually I am going by what people with a lot more experience and wrote the books on how to build a rifle. I am presuming nothing when I install a breech plug. I know for a fact it is sealed because I use inletting black and until there is contact all the way around the face of the plug it isn't done. Most barrels I have seen the threads for the breech plug are way too long and every breech plug I have seen are way to long. To install a breech plug correctly both need to be cut back. There is a right way to do it and as long as people continue to pay these companies to do things wrong there is no incentive for them to change.

 

[64Springer]

I'd love to see your hand fitted breech plugs.

The only way you're going to get a seal that doesn't include the lead of the thread is to rebate that thread diameter. Turning the OD down until you're below the root diameter of the thread. Then you can have a real seal that includes no threads.

But that's impossible to do if you don't have a mating surface inside the barrel breech area.

And to get a small female surface inside the barrel to mate with that small male plug surface would take some true custom design and machining to get there.

Most folks aren't going to go through that kind of expense. Because it's simply overkill.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

I'd love to see your hand fitted breech plugs.

The only way you're going to get a seal that doesn't include the lead of the thread is to rebate that thread diameter. Turning the OD down until you're below the root diameter of the thread. Then you can have a real seal that includes no threads.

But that's impossible to do if you don't have a mating surface inside the barrel breech area.

And to get a small female surface inside the barrel to mate with that small male plug surface would take some true custom design and machining to get there.

Most folks aren't going to go through that kind of expense. Because it's simply overkill.

The only machine tools I own are a drill press and a bandsaw. Most everything I do building a rifle is by hand just like the old timers did. Get a few of the books on building a rifle and they all have chapters on how to install a breech plug by hand. It isn't difficult just takes some patience.