Help ID Musketoon

[ozark57]

I got a lead on gun today and when I went to buy it the owner said that since I was interested in BP guns I should see this "other gun".
I bought it. It is a musketoon, 28" bbl. turned hex to smooth last few inches for bayanet. Lock works well, I think it would shoot. Only thing missing is the ramrod. Sure could use some help with this one!

 

[miqueleter]

Not real sure what it is, but this one comes close.
http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=67

 

[Trot]

Yes, it is Austrian. Apparently some of these were imported during the Civil War.

 

[ozark57]

The bbl. is held in by wedges (no bands)and the bbl.is turned to round in the last 4.5 inches for a bayonet.There are deep stamped U and E on the BBL. plus what looks like two backwords facing "F's" On the buttplate there is s.i.V.E. over 6125. On the lock is 835 and a mark that looks like a wreath with a crown on it ( and possibly a gun across it).
The sight is unlike anything I have seen before with a thumbscrew that, when loosened allows the blade to move in a dovetail with a matching radius for elevation.It is calibrated in lines marked from 4 to 12 and works quite well.Please take note of the protruding grip which is part of the trigger gaurd.I have not seen this before.
It appears to be smoothbore ( possibly as large as .69) which I will verify when I take it to work to carefully clean and measure.

 

[Okwaho]

Yes, it is Austrian. Apparently some of these were imported during the Civil War.

I agree that both sides probably used these along with the Lorenz muskets.See also the Rifle Shoppe catalogue {PP.171,172} where this apparent gun is described as the 1854 & 1862 Jagerstutzen built before the Civil War by both sides and probably used by the V M I cadets in defending the school.The lock looks like the ones seen on the 1854 Lorenz rifled muskets. The number "835" refers to the date of manufacture with the first number "1" omitted as was also seen on Lorenz muskets.
Tom Patton

 

[Tumblernotch]

This is an Austrian Jaeger Rifle, probably of the Model 1835 which originally had the Consol type percussion lock. These were .70 cal. and rifled with 4 shallow grooves. The numbers 835 are actually part of the manufacturing date. The Austrians for some odd reason omitted the 1 on every one I've ever seen. This lock should show signs of conversion but doesn't. A converted Consol lock looks like a converted flintlock since the cover that encloses the primer is mounted like a flintlock battery and spring. There were other Jaegers like this with smaller bores, usually .54 and they were of later make.

This piece most likely has a Delvigne system breech which is basically the same as a patent breech where the powder chamber is smaller than the bore. The ball is hammered against this, upsetting the ball into the rifling. Some were later bored out.

The catch on the side of the barrel fitted into a slot on a socket bayonet like those on US arms, except on the Austrian guns the slot was slightly spiraled, so it kind of spun around.

In one report that I've read the US inspector described this arm as the Austrian smoothbore musket rifled. I have one book with a good photo that shows your rifle and it is described as being made in Vienna, Austria. This one has a date of 1860 and is .577 cal. with Belgian proofs on the barrel. This particular rifle was imported by the South, but both sides did import the Jaeger. I'm sorry I don't have any more info about it, but I hope this helps a little.

 

[Okwaho]

I respectfully disagree with 1835 being the model year.The rather unusual trigger guard with its rear doubling affect didn't come into use until 1849 and the unusual rear sight came out with the 1854 and 1862 Jagerstutzens.
Tom Patton

 

[ozark57]

I just droped a bore light in and it does have a patent breach. Also I can see faint, shallow rifling. I will clean the bore and see what I get.
This gun was said to be of local origin. There was a lot of action here in the Civil War ( I live on the sight of an encampment) and have found large .69 or close minnie bullets here. Being made much earlier than the CW, were these imported used? I guess it would have been designed to use RB's?

 

[Tumblernotch]

I know that at least one report said that it was a smoothbore that had been rifled. But from what I can tell, these were originally rifled, with four grooves. They were pretty much replaced by the M1854 Lorenz rifle in .54 cal. and surplused and sold used. Both sides bought them. The one shown in a book I have has a 28 inch barrel but is .577 cal. The one described in another book as being .70 cal had a 34 inch barrel. The ramrod for yours most likely had a large heavy head, possibly with a brass belt to protect the bore like the Lorenz I used to have. I wish I had more info to give you.

I am kind of surprised that a lockplate dated as early as yours doesn't appear to have been converted from the Consol design. It appears to be originally a standard percussion lock. Right now, I can't find any references to the other markings you describe. If you can get a clear close-up of them, I may be able to locate them in some other sources I have.

By the way, they were probably used with Minies in the CW. I live near a small battlefield and have recovered some dropped .71 Austrian Minies there. They are MASSIVE.

 

[Okwaho]

I just droped a bore light in and it does have a patent breach. Also I can see faint, shallow rifling. I will clean the bore and see what I get.
This gun was said to be of local origin. There was a lot of action here in the Civil War ( I live on the sight of an encampment) and have found large .69 or close minnie bullets here. Being made much earlier than the CW, were these imported used? I guess it would have been designed to use RB's?

I forgot to mention that the only real difference between the the 1854 and the 1862 is the lock plate configuration. The 1854v retained the projection for the frizzen mounting and the 1862 changed to the Enfield shape without the tit and all the 1862's had ramrods.Some 54's were updated to take ramrods so it's best to check the lock plate. All of these guns were originally made in .54 Cal.and many have been found in .58 cal. I have been told but don't know for sure that only the Lorenz Federal guns were rebored to .58 cal.I cannot confirm this and someone may know more about this.
Tom Patton

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Two things about this confuse me about this Austro-Hungarian M1854 Jagerstutzen:

(1) The date on the lock - it appears to be 1835, however that is impossible, it therefore has to be 1855.

(2) The owner stated caliber of .69. The M1854 and M1862 Jagerstutzen were both made in .54 caliber and made to fire the Austrian hollow based bullet, similar to our standard Burton bullet. They were not made in .69 though some of them may have been converted by Federal contractors to .58, so maybe this one was reamed post 1865 to 20 Ga and the OP has not measured?

Some of these were imported for use in the American Civil War but most did not see extended service, many went straight into storage and emerged at the end of the War to be sold as surplus by Bannerman's and others. This one is missing it's original hammer and it appears to have been replaced with a hammer from a British Snyder breach loader. Still, it is a very interesting little rifle and is in decent, collectible condition.

 

[David W.]

Noting the cracks above the trigger area, I would be VERY cautious on what laod I fed it.

 

[ozark57]

Two things about this confuse me about this Austro-Hungarian M1854 Jagerstutzen:

(1) The date on the lock - it appears to be 1835, however that is impossible, it therefore has to be 1855.

(2) The owner stated caliber of .69. The M1854 and M1862 Jagerstutzen were both made in .54 caliber and made to fire the Austrian hollow based bullet, similar to our standard Burton bullet. They were not made in .69 though some of them may have been converted by Federal contractors to .58, so maybe this one was reamed post 1865 to 20 Ga and the OP has not measured?

Some of these were imported for use in the American Civil War but most did not see extended service, many went straight into storage and emerged at the end of the War to be sold as surplus by Bannerman's and others. This one is missing it's original hammer and it appears to have been replaced with a hammer from a British Snyder breach loader. Still, it is a very interesting little rifle and is in decent, collectible condition.

Under a magnifer,I do believe it is a 5 that is not fully stamped on one side. Sorry for the confusion. I will post more as I measure the bore at work.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

No confusion, you cleared it up nicely. Let us know when you get the bore measurement. If any larger than .58 it was definitely modified post 1865 for a shotgun. Oh, it is not a musketoon, though the length could confuse you, in Austrian use it is a standard rifle. As I said above, it is a nice item, you are lucky to have it in such complete condition. Most survived as shotguns with half of the wood removed.