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Help identify my gun

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Add me to the probably circa 1950 -1970 group.
I originally thought the lock was probably Numrich. I was able to locate a picture of one and it isn’t. But it is similar. There are traces of color case hardening on the lock plate. I cannot recall ever seeing this on an old rifle, but it is SOP on the later offerings from Italy, Belgium, Spain, etc.
The area around where the patchbox should be is reminiscent of the “paint spill” patchbox found on the Numrich Minuteman of the period.
The stock is stained to look like walnut but is not. My guess is maple, and it could have begun life as Dixie’s Deluxe Pennsylvania rifle stock. This stock was capable of taking up to a 40 inch barrel. Since the commonly available barrels of the time ran 42 to 44 inches this would account for the barrel sticking out past the end of the stock.
The side plates are different, but what really screams second half of the 20th century is the fact that the lock bolts appear to be zinc or nickel plated round head screws. (As an aside, I once saw a rifle that the maker was quite proud of. He had done a fairly nice job on it, but ruined the whole thing by using brass phillips head screws for everything.)
I think this rifle was made by someone just starting out who had nothing to go on but a few pictures of reproduction rifles in various black powder catalogs. He bought a precarved stock, barrel, butt plate, trigger guard, triggers, and made some things like the front sight, side plate(s) maybe the thimbles, and made an abortive attempt at a patchbox.
Further disassembly might well reveal the name Douglas or Numrich on the bottom barrel flat.
I have had the opportunity to see and even handle quite a few nice original rifles. I’ve even owned a couple.
I have also had the opportunity to handle some really awful homemade attempts at making copies of the old rifles.
This one looks like the latter.
 
Randy Johnson said:
...what really screams second half of the 20th century is the fact that the lock bolts appear to be zinc or nickel plated round head screws. (As an aside, I once saw a rifle that the maker was quite proud of. He had done a fairly nice job on it, but ruined the whole thing by using brass phillips head screws for everything.)...
Thanks for this bit of useful input. This is something that even newbies can direct their attention to and I'll start paying attention to this small, overlooked detail in my references.
 
I think it's a reproduction also,
If you zoom in on photo's,(hover on the pic an click zoom)
You can see the tang isn't fit properly at all, it's not down all the way and is forword too much.

Photo 4 shows the muzzle too far out from the stock end cap, and the middle barrel tennon pin is still exposed.

The stock forearm edges don't follow the barrel flats at all,

Just pointing a few things out,,
 
Forgot to add - bore measures about 13/32" - Don't have anything but tape measure at home... Thanks
 
40 cal.
What do you want to do with it?
I mean what's the goal?
Re-furbish it?
Shoot it?
Sell it?
Hang it on the wall?
 
LWelch said:
Have posted more shots to:
http://s1147.photobucket.com/albums/o555/aviatorlw39/

Any info, advice appreciated, should I disassemble first? get someone to look at it first? Any experts in Stockbridge, McDonough GA area?
Thanks

Lamar

There is currently a lock on Ebay that is very similar.
It isn’t exactly the same, but it’s close enough to believe that your’s is the same vintage. Which, unfortunately, is not as old as you are probably hoping.

If you go to the NMLRA’s website and click on Field Representatives you will see that there is one living in McDonough. He should be able to put you in touch with someone who can help you.
 
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Ok, I can see it better, and I'll say it's not that old now... :wink: I can see that the patchbox is missing... and whoever built it just inletted the lid, but never cut the opening!!!

If the lock works, and if the bore is ok (and most likely, it isn't), the parts could be taken and restocked with one of the precarves to make something more presentable and even shootable. I wouldn't put TOO much effort into it, though.
 
Number19 said:
I wasn't referring to you (edit: I was referring to "several posters"), but how would you know that? I surrender, also. I made an evaluation and was subsequently convinced I was wrong. I just kept pounding away, absorbing the responses that had merit, and eventually had what I needed to change my position. Your responses helped convince me. Thank you.

Number19,

Excuse the delay in posting but was at one of my daughter's soccer tournaments all day.

Thank's for straightening that out. You just kind of threw me when you pulled my post and quoted it with your response.

Just like you and everybody else here, I'm just trying to contribute the best I can.

Enjoy, J.D.
 
The more I look at this, the more I'm thinkin it was "made" to look like a distressed "antique".

Go to the album and use the zoom feature for each photo for detail, but in this photo you can see the Butt Plate was installed with the factory casting edges still present. And the "broken toe" doesn't really follow any grain to be broken, it looks cut.
Fltlock002.jpg


In photo's #1 and #2 the cheek rise is huge, and looks to be left un-touched from what comes as a pre-carve,,
The rear of the trigger guard isn't inlet and there is no screw or pin.
That's why the trigger plate is sticking out, it was never inlet, and the triggers look suspiciously far back to contact the sear.
:doh:

This thing's been furbed to look like an old "found" rifle.
 
No offense intended but I would identify your gun as a crowbar in waiting. If you paid more than $10.00 for it, you were overcharged. :td:
 
It's been fun for you folks to check out my rifle... it's really a photoshopped version of my .22 !!
 
Hmm, :hmm: :haha:

Some things just didn't look right.
Clean up the edges of the photos a bit next time an get the measurements a bit closer and you'll really have'm stumped.
There where a few other things I was suspicious of but didn't want to burst the bubble of the new guy.
All around good job with the Photoshop though, :wink:
 
Just kiddin on the photoshop -- Still don't know much about flintlocks, but somehow after taking it apart and looking at all pieces I agree with the 1950's crowd!!
 
Elnathan said:
Number19 said:
You know what strikes me, are the several posters who claim this is not what it may appear, without giving any supporting evidence. My suggestion, if you don't want to support your claims, don't post. What is the point of posting?quote]

Well, the lockplate is an odd shape, the frizzen spring is oddly proportioned and placed rather high off the lower edge of the plate; the forearm looks slabby; the barrel sticks out too far; the ramrod channel continues to the end of the stock instead of ending 4-5 inches behind the muzzle; the sideplate is odddly shaped; and so is the patchbox, which mimics the shape of the sideplate.
My best guess is that it is a restock of an early reproduction with a sideplate and patchbox made by the person who made the stock, and the rest of the parts of a production or several production guns.


I think you are on the right track. I had a Hopkins & Allen Minuteman percussion from the early 70's. The stock that was very similar, and the cheekpiece was identical. The hardware and lock were different. I was told mine was made by Palmetto of Italy. The barrel was by Numrich.
The gun was pretty bad, but the barrel was good, so I restocked it with all new parts. Shoots well, but the 15/16 x .36 barrel makes it weigh over 10#!
Your gun is not in my 1970 Hopkins & Allen catalog. Maybe there were other companies that used the same stock back then.
 
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