Help IDing an old American longrifle

[kotkinjs1]

Hi all,

I just joined this forum because I'm trying to identify an old American longrifle. I don't know anything about it and I'm not well versed in this family of arms. It's about 48 cal at the muzzle, I assume converted from flintlock (?). It's long and aside from the two script initials engraved in the top barrel flat, completely unmarked. Does it look familiar or identifiable to anyone based on shape, design, etc? Thank you in advance.

 

[kotkinjs1]

more photos....

 

[TFoley]

I can't help you, but those a really useful pics there, Sir!! It sure makes a change from upside-down, back-to-front, reverse views and guns stretching waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off into the distance that are a frustrating feature of so many requests for help. Keep it up, please.

I have to tell you, though, in spite of my general ignorance about the genre, that I'm somewhat less than happy about the cast brass patchbox, the lock inletting, the general appearance of the drum and other metal parts and a few other less than impressive details including the 'wear' on the stock. A recent set of movies on Youtuber, where a fine young man builds a Traditions Hawken kit shows how to get an identical 'aged' appearance to a stock.

Hope I'm wrong here.

 

[Notchy Bob]

The very first and most important thing you'll want to do is to verify the rifle is unloaded. Insert a long wooden rod in the bore until it bottoms out, and mark it at the muzzle. Pull it out and lay it beside the barrel with your mark even with the muzzle. Allow about half an inch for the breechplug, and compare the rod to the barrel. If the rod is more than that half-inch short, you have something in there, which may be a load. If you think it's loaded, handle the rifle like a loaded gun and check back here for help with safely deactivating and removing the load. Black powder that is kept dry does not go bad.

I am a little puzzled by this rifle. It has nice wood in the stock, and the brass mountings (butt plate, triggerguard, sideplate, thimbles, and nose cap) are neatly fitted to the wood. The tang is properly inletted. There's even some neat incised carving around the trigger guard. However, that single trigger is very crude, by comparison, and the nosecap is not well fitted to the barrel. I think the lock was originally percussion... No visible holes or plugs to correspond with removal of a pan, frizzen, or feather spring. There is no cutout in the wood above the lockplate for a cock, as is often seen on original flintlocks. The lock itself is puzzling. It appears the surface has been at least partially ground away. The hammer does not engage the nipple properly, hitting it at an angle instead of squarely on the top. A gunsmith who was capable of fitting the brass mountings that well would not be likely to turn out a rifle with such a crude trigger and poor lock-to-nipple fit. The lock and trigger may well be replacements, but I think the rifle was probably originally percussion... No cut-out, as mentioned above, and there is only one lock bolt (flintlocks typically have two). I don't know what to make of that patchbox. I've never seen one quite like it.

It might be enlightening to remove the barrel and take a look at the underside. Carefully drive out the barrel pins just far enough to release the barrel, and take out the ramrod and tang screw. On the underside of the barrel, look for "empty" dovetails to indicate the barrel may have been moved back or repurposed. Look for hammer marks which might indicate a hand-forged barrel. Also measure the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle, at the breech and at least a couple of places in between. This will tell you if the barrel is straight octagon, straight tapered, or "swamped" (tapered and flared).

Other than to say I think your rifle is probably American made, likely from the mid-19th century, I can't offer anything by way of identification. Do you know anything of its history, or chain of custody?

I'll look forward to reading what others have to say.

Notchy Bob

 

[oldwood]

Notchy has this rifle pretty well analyzed. My guess is, the rifle might be an old rebuild using repurposed parts from another with a damaged stock , which was A common practice back then. The stock configuration has a Lehigh , Pa. area Roman nose shape , commonly found before 1840 all over Appalachia and Ohio. It displays a long pointed Southern rifle barrel tang. No forward lock bolt , need to look on inside front end of the lock plate to see if the front lock bolt existed. The patch box is not a commonly identifiable type. Have seen a few with the bottom hinge , and the Southern top latch but have to put it in the "novelty" class, Not from any known area. The utilitarian single trigger looks like it was crudely made by a blacksmith . It's non ergonomic angle looks a little out of place and might be another clue to the thought , that the parts are repurposed. There are probably other signs and indications on the parts to better define the rifle's origin we can't see from photos , like hidden signatures under the butt plate, or in the barrel channel , etc. . The non equal spacing of the r/r thimbles is a conundrum , as is the total lack of any carving on the wood. Oh well , the mystery continues.................oldwood

 

[kotkinjs1]

Thank you all for the information so far. As I'm mostly a military arms collector, can you provide any good books or online starting points to begin learning about American longrifles? Mostly on the history and manufacturers side of things, less so on how they're made.

 

[Rifleman1776]

My first impression is a fairly recent rebuild using old parts. Still very nice.

 

[kotkinjs1]

The very first and most important thing you'll want to do is to verify the rifle is unloaded. Insert a long wooden rod in the bore until it bottoms out, and mark it at the muzzle. Pull it out and lay it beside the barrel with your mark even with the muzzle. Allow about half an inch for the breechplug, and compare the rod to the barrel. If the rod is more than that half-inch short, you have something in there, which may be a load. If you think it's loaded, handle the rifle like a loaded gun and check back here for help with safely deactivating and removing the load. Black powder that is kept dry does not go bad.

I am a little puzzled by this rifle. It has nice wood in the stock, and the brass mountings (butt plate, triggerguard, sideplate, thimbles, and nose cap) are neatly fitted to the wood. The tang is properly inletted. There's even some neat incised carving around the trigger guard. However, that single trigger is very crude, by comparison, and the nosecap is not well fitted to the barrel. I think the lock was originally percussion... No visible holes or plugs to correspond with removal of a pan, frizzen, or feather spring. There is no cutout in the wood above the lockplate for a cock, as is often seen on original flintlocks. The lock itself is puzzling. It appears the surface has been at least partially ground away. The hammer does not engage the nipple properly, hitting it at an angle instead of squarely on the top. A gunsmith who was capable of fitting the brass mountings that well would not be likely to turn out a rifle with such a crude trigger and poor lock-to-nipple fit. The lock and trigger may well be replacements, but I think the rifle was probably originally percussion... No cut-out, as mentioned above, and there is only one lock bolt (flintlocks typically have two). I don't know what to make of that patchbox. I've never seen one quite like it.

It might be enlightening to remove the barrel and take a look at the underside. Carefully drive out the barrel pins just far enough to release the barrel, and take out the ramrod and tang screw. On the underside of the barrel, look for "empty" dovetails to indicate the barrel may have been moved back or repurposed. Look for hammer marks which might indicate a hand-forged barrel. Also measure the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle, at the breech and at least a couple of places in between. This will tell you if the barrel is straight octagon, straight tapered, or "swamped" (tapered and flared).

Other than to say I think your rifle is probably American made, likely from the mid-19th century, I can't offer anything by way of identification. Do you know anything of its history, or chain of custody?

I'll look forward to reading what others have to say.

Notchy Bob

Bob, thanks again. I took your instructions and used the ramrod to measure the length down the inside/outside of the barrel. I also used an endoscope on my cellphone app to peek inside. It looks like there's......something there. Not round like a ball, more like something wedged in. You can see form the ramrod how far it goes when inside - to about half inch in front of where the touch hole would be from the cone. It doesn't seem like that's enough room to be a ball either, to be that close to the touch hole. Unfortunately there's no cleaning screw to be able to try and shine a light through the bolster and see if it's obstructed by a ball from inside the barrel.

Anyway, on closer inspection, there does seem to be a modification where the second trigger would have been - it's been plugged by some brass maybe. Also, the barrel does appear to be slightly swamped, maybe 2 or 3 millimeters at the middle. I just used a straightedge to judge but the picture came out horrible, I apologize. You can just see the light shining through at the middle though.

 

[andy52]

The barrel obstruction appears to be wood to me, so I would guess a broken ramrod possibly with a jag still attached.
I remove a similar obstruction for a guy with a old caplock not to long ago using a CO2 load discharger.

 

[kotkinjs1]

The barrel obstruction appears to be wood to me, so I would guess a broken ramrod possibly with a jag still attached.

That would be an extremely tight fitting ramrod. Is that likely? It seems to be almost the entire inner diameter of the barrel itself.

 

[andy52]

That would be an extremely tight fitting ramrod. Is that likely? It seems to be almost the entire inner diameter of the barrel itself.

If there is a cleaning patch attached yes, I've seen that happen many times. See if you can find someone with a CO2 discharge device and try blowing out the obstruction. The trigger appears to have been a double set trigger at one time but has been modified.

 

[kje54]

Bob, thanks again. I took your instructions and used the ramrod to measure the length down the inside/outside of the barrel. I also used an endoscope on my cellphone app to peek inside. It looks like there's......something there. Not round like a ball, more like something wedged in. You can see form the ramrod how far it goes when inside - to about half inch in front of where the touch hole would be from the cone. It doesn't seem like that's enough room to be a ball either, to be that close to the touch hole. Unfortunately there's no cleaning screw to be able to try and shine a light through the bolster and see if it's obstructed by a ball from inside the barrel.

Anyway, on closer inspection, there does seem to be a modification where the second trigger would have been - it's been plugged by some brass maybe. Also, the barrel does appear to be slightly swamped, maybe 2 or 3 millimeters at the middle. I just used a straightedge to judge but the picture came out horrible, I apologize. You can just see the light shining through at the middle though.

I agree with the others that it appears to be a parts gun. As for when it was built and who built it will probably remain a mystery, could have been a farmer, backwoodsman, hillbilly, "modern" enthusiast, etc. Heck it could have been built any time from the mid 1800s up to the mid 1900s.

 

[kotkinjs1]

Found this on the web....mine looks exactly like it except for the patchbox. And the initials match!

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/lot-106884.aspx

 

[Notchy Bob]

Found this on the web....mine looks exactly like it except for the patchbox. And the initials match!

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/lot-106884.aspx

Good work! I think you may have found the original maker!

Regarding that obstruction in the barrel, there's no telling. I would still treat the gun as if it is loaded, until you can absolutely confirm that it isn't.

Notchy bob

 

[kotkinjs1]

Good work! I think you may have found the original maker!

Regarding that obstruction in the barrel, there's no telling. I would still treat the gun as if it is loaded, until you can absolutely confirm that it isn't.

Notchy bob

How would you try and go about removing whatever's there? Worm puller?

 

[oldwood]

Loudenslagers were a family of gun builders from Snyder or Union county Pa. what is called the Upper Susquehanna School of Pa. gun builders. That would explain the shape of the stock as their work , used the same shape stock as the Lehigh school. Contemporary makers from the same area , Union and Snyder Co.'s would be Joseph Long and Dreisbach. Nearest town would be Lewisburg ,Pa. . ..oldwood

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Possibly the obstruction is a broken ramrod from trying to remove something, possibly a ball etc?

 

[Morgan Gray]

Great thread and very informative. I think the patchbox was added much later after the rifle was built. Comparing the the wood color, tool marks and the edge at the surface of the patchbox, it looks much different than the lock inletting. And not really clear, there are marks inside the lid that look machine-made. The fact that it is cast and these differences means it probably is a much later addition to a great antique.

 

[Kansas Jake]

The obstruction in the barrel may simply be a piece of wood someone put in there to keep it from being fired. When I was a kid my grandpa gave me an old Damascus beat up double breech loader shot gun to play with. He pounded cobs in the breech of the barrels to prevent it from being loaded.

 

[TNGhost]

Thank you all for the information so far. As I'm mostly a military arms collector, can you provide any good books or online starting points to begin learning about American longrifles? Mostly on the history and manufacturers side of things, less so on how they're made.

I can recommend a book I just finished reading. Bought it on the recommendation of others. It is The Kentucky Rifle by John G.W. Dillon. Lots of info, lots of drawing and pictures of original rifles as well as a list of gunsmiths and their initials/markings. It also talks about percussion conversions and "rebuild" rifles as opposed to forgeries, etc. Got mine off of Amazon.