Help on choosing a rifle

[Clark]

I'm new here and have really enjoyed reading all the information about BP. I am looking to get into BP, mainly for hunting deer with a possibility of elk. I am leaning towards a .50 caliber percussion rifle. I really like the look of a Kentucky (or Pennsylvania? is there a difference?) rifle. The problem is that I am having a tough time finding one. From what I have seen, none of the more mainstream manufacturers offer one.

I do like the look of the TC Renegade, it's the right price but for looks it's a distant second. I read on here of all these other manufacturers, mostly smaller independent guys I am assuming... Is there a company that offers what I want in the TC Renegade or Hawken price range? Thanks.

Clark

 

[d.thomson]

If you are going to hunt elk I would probably go with a .54 . From what I have read here the .50 is a little iffy when it comes to bigger game. The T/C hawkens or any T/C product has an outstanding warenty even if you are not the original owner. The lyman Great Planes Riffle from what I have read is a close second and a bit cheaper. I have a T/C Hawken in .50 1/48 twist, this gun is a compromize because it shoots Patched Round Ball (PRB) preaty good but you can also shoot conical bullits as well . The Lyman GPR is a 1/60 twist and is a round ball shooter only. So it depends what you are going to put through your gun, PRB, or Conical bullits. By the way I just got a Lyman GPR in flint (kit) but my wife willnot let me see it till my BD, but what I have heard of other people they realy like their GPR. Hope this helps out a bit . Regards and welcome to the forum, Fisher King.

 

[Headhunter]

In my opinion, there are two types of muzzleloaders.

Thompson Center and Customs.

And a 50 cal can handle ANYTHING in front of it. Don't let anyone fool you.

If you play your cards right. You can find an outstanding double trigger Renegade for $250, sometimes less.

Drop a GM 50 Cal 1-70" in it and you have one of the most Accurate, Rugged, and Reliable muzzleloaders of all time. With a warranty that can not be matched by Any manufaturer.

Headhunter

 

[cowpoke1955]

Clark,
I agree with Fisher. The Lyman GPR is a good, solid, straight shooting rifle and in .54 cal., you can't beat it. A .54 caliber round ball will put down any game in America. I have two of them. A .54 percussion I bought almost 27 years ago and a .54 flint that I built from a kit a few months ago. If you can build from a kit, you can save even more, plus the satisfaction that you built it. This was my first kit, so I went slow and it turned out great. Check with DNR Sports. Here's the link:[url] http://www.dnrsports.com/acatalog/D___R_Catalog_Lyman_Muzzleloaders_1529.html[/url] . Just check it out before you put down that hard cash. :thumbsup:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I think that I'll agree with Headhunter! To quote a friend of mine at our local league shoot on Sunday, "those .50 cal. 370 grain Maxi's you use are just fine...there aint nothin that needs more killin then that".

If your going to feed your gun just PRB's, get a slow twist barrel and be very happy. If you're like me and you shoot both PRB's and Maxi's through the same gun, then you're going to need a 1 in 48 twist barrel.

Remember to put the gun up to your shoulder BEFORE you buy it. I was going to buy a different, fancier, more expensive gun...till I lifted the thing to my shoulder and the fancy ultra-curved butt made my armpit hurt without even firing the thing! I wound-up with a gun that fits and hits and only $295.00 to boot! A Lyman Trade Rifle .50 cal. percussion.

With a .490 PRB, .020 pre-lubed ox-yoke patch and 70 grains of 3F REAL BLACK, it knocks-out the 10-X ring at 25 yards and has cut playing cards in half :shocked2: . With a 370 grain T/C Maxi-Ball and the same charge of 70 gr. of 3F, the rifle has won several BP League competitions . I chrono'd the Maxi at 1347 feet per second. That's a power factor of 499+, roughly that of a 20 ga. rifled slug :winking: .

Bottom line is this: No one ever got up after being hit with a .50 BMG and said that the gun should have been a .54! But then the BMG isn't shooting a wimp load either. Some guys like to feel like they shot something AND still be able to teach kids & moms how to make smoke with say 25-35 grains. That's where I'm coming from.

By the way, at Christmas I got my son the same gun, make model etc., just put a peep sight on it. Now he kicks Dad's butt every so often...and it's a great feeling. :haha: .

Good luck in your search and I hope you find something that's fun to shoot .

Happy holidays & all the best, Dave

 

[spitpatch]

I have several muzzle-loaders from 32 caliber to 58 caliber. I have just finished building my first muzzle-loader, a beautiful gun, not from a kit, so now I don't really want to own or shoot anything unless I build it myself. Therefore, if you are interested in a nice 54 caliber Thompson Center Hawkin, e-mail me at [email protected] The price would be right. Jim

 

[john12865]

Lyman Great Plains Rifle. It will take care of you and out live you, if you take care of it. Go with .54 cal.
50.cal is great, but .54 cal has a little more umph in it's ***.

Hunting dangerous game, I use a .54 with a .54 Lyman plains pistol for a fast second shot if needed.
Don't confine yourself and go under gunned, because .50 cal is what every body shoots. :hmm:
I own .50 cal's, but the 54 cal is where you should go.
I hunt everything from tree rats to moose with .54 cal.

 

[Jac Spring]

Clark, I had the same question recently and answered it with a 50 cal TC Renegade. Check gun broker, this board's for sale forum, etc. - they are out there for $250 or less.

I got one for $200 plus shipping and love it - 50 caliber, 1-48" twist. The buttplate is very comfortable to shoot, yet classic looking.

Here's a pic of a couple of tarets shot at 40 meters the very first time I shot it:

If you want to hunt elk - then as mentioned, just choose a heavy conical bullet - like the TC maxi, Hornady plains bullet, etc. - they will end-to-end an elk, and you don't need any more power than that!

IMHO

 

[Keppy]

Welcome to the forum. :thumbsup: Clark what part of Beltrami county are you from? I'm from Bemidji area. I might be able to steer you to a couple great places that will help you find either rifle your looking for. PM me if you like.
Hacksaw

 

[Slake]

Choosing is a matter of personal preferrance, it's so hard to do. Shop and check 'em all out. I like Thompsons because they are well made and made in the USA. But I also have been smitten with the well balanced fine shooting aspects of the so called cheaper guns like CVA's and Traditions. I have a Traditions Shenandoah which is a long barreled Kentucky styled rifle that is so sweet shooting it makes me smile big and it did not set me back big bucks. I own a Lyman which is also a very fine well made piece. If you can go to a BP shoot somewhere in your area and look around and talk to shooters that may help you decide
It was easier for me I was handed an old piece and I made it mine
Oh yeah, welcome, Clark.

 

[Clark]

Thanks for the responses. You're answering more of my questions than I even asked! It's wonderful!

john - Everyone shoots .50 caliber? Probably kinda like driving a Chevy with a 350? EVeryone does it and it is old? I tend to agree with idea, but parts for a 350 are consequently dirt cheap. Since this is going to be my first exploit into BP I'll stick with it.

So no one has any recommendations for a Kentucky/Pennsylvania style of rifle? Is there any advantage of having the longer barrel with BP? Maybe I am going after something that doesn't serve any good purpose? Thanks for the help, I think I am on the right track.

Clark

 

[Rebel]

Traditions makes a fairly inexpensive Penn. and Kentucky. More expensive and better quality are available from Pedersoli.

 

[BP]

Feel like I need to pipe in here about the possibility of elk with whatever you choose.

I took an elk with a .50 inline (before I got the traditional bug) in the fall of '05. Use the HEAVIEST conical you can find for either .50 or .54 and a stout load.

I used a 345gr. Powerbelt and 105 grs. of Pyrodex. The bull died, (lung hit) but he traveled aways. I watched another fellow in camp hit a small bull in the boiler room (the guide and I both saw it hit) with a 395gr. conical and 85 grs. of blackpowder from a .54 at 60 yds. The bull went down, got up and trucked off the side of the mountain. We looked for four hours....No blood, no hair, just a spot on the ground where he'd rolled on his back. The outfitter said later that their loss rate for ML was higher than archery. Use the heaviest load and conical you can shoot......That's what I'm going to do next time I draw an elk tag - with the .50 Hawken I'm building (with a 1/28 twist barrel for conicals).

 

[Zonie]

Clark: Welcome to the Forum.

Your original post indicated that you are interested in a fullstock rifle and to answer one of your questions, there is not any real difference between a Pennsylvania rifle and a Kentucky rifle.
Pennsylvania is where almost all of them were made, and the term Kentucky Rifle is what most people call them (mainly due to a song that was popular just after the war of 1812).

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that there is not an abundance of offerings of Kentucky Rifles from manufactures these days.
This is especially true if your looking for a .50 or .54 and want to pay a low price.
In a nutshell, I don't know of any fullstock rifles in those calibers which is selling for less than $800. If this is still in your price range, you might want to contact the folks at TVM[url] http://www.tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/[/url]
Their Southern Poor Boy's are somewhere around that price.
Most of the other full stock rifles are made by individuals one at a time, and their prices reflect it. They usually start at around $1100 which is probably a lot more than you are wanting to spend.

That said, I think the other folks are giving you good advice (if your willing to live with a half stock.

If your handy with tools, another option for you might be to buy a Thompson Center Hawken (used prices are around $200-$300) and buy a semi-finished fullstock from Pecatonica River or Track of the Wolf. I think one of these stocks cost around $90-$250 depending on the type and grade of wood.

Here's a link to Pecatonica Rivers TC Fullstock. For the prices, click the "stock and pistol prices" in the upper right hand area of the page.
[url] http://www.longrifles-pr.com/thompsoncenter.shtml[/url]

You should be warned that these stocks are not a "drop in" stock and quite a bit of work would be involved in fitting the parts off of the Hawken into the stock.
In case you didn't notice, we have a Builders Bench forum here for folks who are doing this kind of work. You might look it over.

Again, Welcome to you.
zonie

 

[Clark]

Thanks for the advice guys. I looked at the Pedersoli rifles. They sure are nice looking guns, but probably a little bit more than I was hoping to spend. Maybe one day...

Zonie - Thanks for the information on full-stock rifles. From what I've read and been told here it sounds like a T/C Renegade/Hawken is a good base to start from. I am fairly handy with woodworking tools and do like that line of work so I think I'll take your suggestion of getting a used T/C and then buying a semi-finished full-stock from Pecatonica Rivers. That way I'll have more blood and sweat equity into my rifle too. Which is a good thing.

This site is dangerous for someone looking for a part-time hobby! I'm in far deeper than I thought I would get but I love it! Thanks again.

Clark

 

[Jac Spring]

BP, the power belts expand quickly - was the 395 grain conical a hollow point?

I would use solid nosed 410 Hornady plains bullet it they shoot well. I agree with your "heavy as possible" advice.

 

[Zonie]

Clark: Not only will you have the sweat equity in the gun, but you will have a unique piece which you can tailor to your desires.
For instance, if you buy a #2 or #3 grade of Curly Maple your gun will have the beautiful stripes associated with Kentucky rifles. You can also omit the cap box or replace it with a full patchbox of your choice. You can build the stock butt length to give you the amount of pull your body and shooting style likes. If you really don't like the deeply curved buttplate on the Hawken, you can spend another $15-$20 and buy a flatter one in brass, steel or German Silver buttplate from Track of the Wolf and install it instead.You can reshape the cheekpiece to whatever you like, install a cheekpiece inlay or a wire inlay design and the best part of all is that while your working on the stock, you can reinstall the pieces into the original stock and go out and shoot it any time you want. :grin:

I am sure you realize your gun will not be Historically or Period Correct but when all is said and done, most people won't know the difference and unless you join a group of reenacters who are purists no one will say a thing.

zonie
PS: I would say I'm sorry for getting you in deeper than you initially wanted but I won't. :rotf: :grin: :thumbsup:

 

[BP]

To be honest, I don't really remember if the other fellow was using a hollow or flat point. I do know that he didn't have enough powder behind it. He was shooting a .54, so I'd guess it was whatever the 395gr. from Hornady is.

I didn't much care for the Powerbelts. I didn't mention in my initial post that on the same hunt I hit a VERY large bull on the second day right at dark. 50yds. I was a little high, but right behind the shoulder. The guide and I watched him stagger two different ways and when his lead cows (he had 30 in his harem...it was like this was being filmed for one of those OC shows.....) he went with them. Dark ensued and we rode back up in the morning to recover him. No blood, no hair, just some branches knocked out of two trees he ran between. We looked from dawn until 1:00pm and finally gave up. I was about ready to sell my ML on the spot. More so after I witnessed the hit on the other guys bull. I knocked down the 5X4 on the way back to the horses on the evening of the last day.

Enough of the story, if a ML bullet is going to end to end an elk, you'll be standing right beside it. That trip make me a devout believer in heavy bullet, heavy charge. Elk are big tough critters with a thick hide (I've got the hide from my first hanging on the basement steps banister) that take alot to put down.

I'll admit my experience is limited to the two I've taken (one cartridge rifle, one ML), but I'd be very, very choosy about my shots if using PRB and very choosy about shots with conical or sabots. Otherwise, you'll be in for some sleepless nights.

 

[Robert58]

This is what can be found in a Pawn Shop. $100.00 out the door. When I bought it, it was the light coloured wood. I Refinished it with a little Red Mahogany stain and Min Wax Wipe On Poly. The bore had rust in it. I cleaned it up, it has some rust pits in it but they don't affect accuracy at all.

Robert

 

[tg]

On Elk you will probably do beter if you stick with the old PRB a .50 will work though many prefer the .54 or.58, many Elk are taken with PRB every year by veteran ML hunters, get close and put it in the right spot, most valid info when compiled and compared will give the nod to the ball.There was a thread on this some time ago on this or another forum and a greatr number of posts supported the PRB this was imput from many hunters with many Elk under their belts, I know personaly the .50 will do well, but would recommed a bigger ball as you can gain a bit in effective range.Many Elk are lost every year to centerfire and archery gear as well usually to poor shot placement or excesive range, often we think we hit the right spot but don't really know untill the animal is found.