Help selecting between guns for elk hunting

[Bill Hall]

Well Capper, it's only been in the last few years that I've learned you don't need a large amount of powder to bring down an elk. A couple of those kills were with 120 grains of ffg, overkill. I dropped down to 110 grains with two more, still overkill. I believe I used 90 grains ffg with that little rifle, and that was the last elk I killed with a .54. That elk died just as quick, and just as dead as with some of those heavier loads. Typical amount of lung damage too. All those kills were with a patched round ball by the way.

It took me around 20 years of hunting to realize that muzzleloaders don't kill with shock power, like a modern high power rifle, it's the size of the ball that inflicts damage. Besides, loading all that powder doesn't add that much speed, it mostly adds recoil and sound.

I switched to hunting elk with a .58, cause it's lighter to carry. But if I were to go elk hunting with a .54 today, I would use around 90 grains ffg, just to keep the velocity up so it shoots flat. Of course this depends on how accurate it is with that charge. The load may have to be adjusted up or down.

And with all that said, shot placement is still the most important factor, no matter what the species. :wink: Bill

 

[Bill Hall]

Oh, I just re-read your post about the maxi ball. I don't mean to say the RB is the only way, or the best way to go, I'm just stating why I like it so much.

The first elk I saw killed with a muzzleloader was taken with .54 maxi from a renegade. When I was younger, I hunted with an older friend, Woody, recently passed, who took a magnificent bull at around 180 yards. I was in the next canyon when I heard the shot. When I found him on the side of the next canyon, the elk was already gutted. I asked him where he shot from and he pointed out a tree waaay down at the bottom of the canyon that he said he leaned against when he pulled the trigger, 180 paces away. He said he aimed about two feet over the elk and hit him square in the side.

Later I asked Woody if he thought that shot was a little too far to be considered ethical with a muzzleloader. He told me he practiced, and practiced, and practiced some more at varying ranges, and knew just where to put that maxi.

Range is certainly an advantage of conicals over RB's. RB's lose energy fast, whereas a heavy conical retains it farther down range. I wouldn't even consider a shot like that with any RB. Of course, Woody had plenty of time to think about his sight picture before he fired, and used a rest to steady the rifle. In my experience, this senario doesn't occur very often with elk hunting. What I'm saying is I think RB's are better in more typical situations, where you see an elk 20 to 70 away, and only have a split second to aim and fire. You don't need to think about sight picture, just aim, touch the trigger, and it's there. But, if you can confidently and quickly put a maxi, or other conical, where you want at varying ranges, by all means use it. :thumbsup: Bill

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Bill..........I don't want to use a conical. I hate recoil. I did an experiment with my Renegade. I posted it in Roundballs thread about skipping the rifling.

I came up with 75 gr of Swiss as the most accurate. I believe it would be close to 90 gr of Goex in power.

My plan is to hunt that this year for elk and muleys.

I asked about your load to verify for myself that it's enough for elk. The more I get. The more confident I get with my load. I'm feeling pretty good about it now.

 

[nkbj]

Only seen one animal killed with a 54 maxi. The hind foot came out through the shoulder and let me tell you that rabbit was dead before it hit the ground. Nothing should ever run from my brother when he's packing.
But, about the .54 with round ball. The only down falling with round ball is the limitation on range. If range is liable to be something to deal with where you are going then may as well develop a big medicine load that is accurate on out there as far as you can get it.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I hunt with guys who use maxi balls, great plains, etc and when deer hunting they all work! There is just something about a round ball that just seems to dominate! Minus the usual pass through thats common with a 400gr conical on deer sized game, the roundball seems to just... i dont know?

 

[tg]

"the roundball seems to just... i dont know?

Be the traditional projectile for real traditional ML hunting, it is ok to say and think it :thumbsup:

 

[luieb45]

Ouch! Bait..

What's wrong with bait?

 

Only one thing to say about the selection of a Bull Elk hunting rifle. Both the rifle calibers will do the job if the Bull is hit in the boiler room. Roundball or conical. Pick your rifle and shoot it plenty to work up the most accurate and powerful load you can handle.
When using full up loads don't be afraid to pad up the buttstock so you don't develope a flinch with all the hunting loads you need to shoot to get ready for the one shot you will take that counts. enjoy the hunt.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Ouch! Bait..

What's wrong with bait?

We all have our own way of hunting. I understand baiting and dogs are a way to hunt bears.

It's not the only way though. Plenty of bears are shot in Colorado, and baiting and dogs are illegal.

I'm not judging. I just like a different method.

Not really important. Sometimes I can't help myself from making a comment.

I'm told there's a long list of those who ignore me. :idunno:

That's not my method either. :wink:

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

Ouch! Bait..

What's wrong with bait?

Luie,
It's a cultural/regional thing. When I was a lad in Texas, it was common to hunt over corn dispensers. I consider hunting over food plots or water holes similar. I moved to Arizona when I was a teenager, and learned a new way to hunt. I have no desire to "stand" hunt anymore. However, I'm a firm believer that hunters of all types have to stick together if we're to ensure hunting is available to future generations.
Regards,
Mike

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

Ouch! Bait..

What's wrong with bait?

Luie,
It's a cultural/regional thing. When I was a lad in Texas, it was common to hunt over corn dispensers. I consider hunting over food plots or water holes similar. I moved to Arizona when I was a teenager, and learned a new way to hunt. I have no desire to "stand" hunt anymore. However, I'm a firm believer that hunters of all types have to stick together if we're to ensure hunting is available to future generations.
Regards,
Mike

Luie,
just thought of an example: If through scouting I locate a dead-fall tree that's loaded with termites, and there's bear sign around the tree, I'll use that to my advantage. But I won't throw down bait and change the animal's habit to suit me. Personal decision; not a judgement against other methods.
Token addition to stay on topic: Go with the .54 and a PRB. And work for that perfect broadside shot.
Mike

 

[buttonbuck]

I live in Illinois shoot 54 cal tc rifles and use the roundball because I hunt whitetail deer. The best conical accuracy I get from the renegade is 90gr of goex, with a wonder wad and shooting a maxi hunter that a member here cast for me. If I was traveling to Colorado I would try the conicals out to 125 with a peep sight. On my second trip I would challenge myself more using the round ball. The third time smooth bore all the way. Hunting Elk is going to be my midlife crisis.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Here in Wisconsin it takes 8-9 years to draw a bear tag. So if you don't use bait, it's going to be a long wait for another try.

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

Here in Wisconsin it takes 8-9 years to draw a bear tag. So if you don't use bait, it's going to be a long wait for another try.

That's why I said it's largely regional and cultural. I was not passing judgement.
Getting a desert bighorn ram tag in Arizona is a once in a lifetime chance. Even if baiting was legal for them, I wouldn't do it. It's just me. :v
Regards,
Mike

 

[BrownBear]

I agree AZflyguy. It's regional, and at least up here regional within the state. In parts of Alaska it's okay to bait black bears and parts not. And nowhere is it legal to bait grizzlies or brown bears. The distinction between the two black bear hunts is that the baiting is allowed in areas with high black bear populations but also with very heavy brush. You'd almost never see one without the bait, yet the place is overrun with them.

I don't do it, but it's not a custom in my region. Of course, we don't have black bears in my region either! :grin:

Along the same lines, in my youth we did about 90% of our black bear hunting with hounds. That bunches up the panties on a lot of folks, more so even than baiting. Heck, I have no doubt I've killed more of them with a 22 LR or 22 mag than any other caliber. That's cuzz those were the calibers of choice for head shooting treed bears.

Another quick example: Around Chesapeake Bay you're not likely to get much duck shooting if you don't use Golden Decoys, aka corn, around your blind. It illegal as hell, but so many guys do it that you're lost if you don't too. Me? I chose not to hunt at all rather than write letters to the editor or organize street protests against it and create a stink that the anti's could grab hold of.

We gotta stick together. Anti's lurk all the hunting web sites, this one I'm sure too. They gotta get their info somewhere, and what better place than from hunters dumping in each other's boots.

 

[rawhide]

I would go with the .54 sounds like you already got a good load for it and it seems to be working for ya. I my self hunt elk with a cva hawken in .54 I use 90 grains of T7 FFFg and a .380 cast real bullet. longest shot on a 500-550 lb. cow was 60 yards or so paced hit her on the tip of the shoulder and she went down hard! others I shot with this load went down fast. fourntly never had one run on me. then again seen elk hit with a .50 with a maxi to and same thing went thud fast. my 2 cents rawhide.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

There seems to be a general notion that elk are harder to kill and require a more powerful load than one would use for deer. It's odd but in the Lewis & Clark journals they refer to elk as "the big white deer" and mention that they found them very easy to approach and kill. Likewise in "Ruxton of the Rockies" the young Englishman also comments that he found elk easier to kill than deer. He says that where as a deer will nearly always run some distance after taking a ball through the heart, the elk will more often drop in their tracks. I believe Ruxton was shooting a .58 double.
Doesn't it seem odd that the experience of those early hunters differ so greatly from the generally accepted wisdom of today's hunters?
:idunno:
I personally do not believe elk require a more powerful load than deer. About the only difference I've seen is that the bigger animal may require a bit longer to bleed out and so may travel farther before dropping to a lung shot. With a heart shot either animal will typically run 20-50 yards and fall stone dead.
My advise to those who haven't often hunted elk is don't worry so much about your rifle but put far more effort into getting yourself into top physical condition. Where we normally hunt elk the air is thin and the hills are steep. The absolute ideal rifle, if there is such a thing, won't help if you aren't physically able to go to where the elk are found and pack it back out. At my age I have to limit myself to the easy terrain and I don't see as many elk as my younger and better conditioned hunting partners.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I agree Joe. I think this may be my last year to hunt elk. Even though I hike the mountains everyday. I still feel myself slowing down, and my back can't take getting the meat out anymore.

I'm either going to limit myself to deer, or retire from hunting big game completely, and concentrate on shoots and rendezvous.

 

[hoochiepapa]

You've all seen this before, both Great Plains from my .54, both from elk taken at about 100 yards, with about 110 grs. of poopodex.
I would by all means use the .54, I have seen elk wounded and escape with the .50. Just my personal preference. And I will be hunting with a round ball this season.
As for baiting bears, if you hunt with a round ball, that's about the only way you're going to see one. Just plain luck other wise. It's ignorance to try to make people hunt the way you think you do. :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

"It's ignorance to try to make people hunt the way you think you do."

Also bliss,lots of bliss floating around here :hmm: and no shortage of the first when many posts are reponded to, there are so many regional customs even requirements to hunt some game yet many stomp om some practices without having a clue what is at the root of them, we can no longer use dogs in Oregon thanks to all the $ from Cal/Colorado that supported the ballot, of course a lot of suburban lefties are missing their pussycats or Poodles now, Boo-Who, good to see you going with the PRB Mike, it is to bad some states have set a weight standard which limits the use of very acceptable calibers for big game.using modern centerfire theory is a real joke when setting ML regs.