Help with an 1851 Navy, alignment?

[Schutzer]

Hello, I’m new to the hobby, and just purchased at a gun show an Armi San Marco apparently manufactured in 1979 (judging by the “AE” marking) brass 1851 Navy in .44 caliber, which I am really excited about. I own new Pietta models and this one just feels so much tighter, more solid, less “rattle-y”, the wood is prettier, and just feels better in the hand than the Piettas. Note I have not yet taken it apart, but the action just seems so much tighter and the hammer spring so much stronger than the new Piettas— which I’m really hoping will translate into fewer cap jams. So either someone took great care of it or it’s gotten some work over the years.

After I got it home (isn’t it always that way?) to my dismay I noticed that the cylinder slightly over-travels (see photo). The cylinder is VERY solid, it doesn’t jiggle or move at all after cocking the hammer (unlike the Piettas), so it’s not a timing issue. The situation is somewhat similar to an older thread I found here in which the guy reported that the misalignment was huge and different for each chamber— but in this case, this misalignment is smaller and constant for all chambers. By the way there is ZERO daylight at the forcing cone, which makes me think someone took really good care of it or worked on it.

Before I start taking it apart (and cleaning it!), would anyone have any ideas as to the cause? Was this typical for guns made in that time period (70s)? The misalignment is so small that am wondering if it will even have much affect on accuracy or power. But I don’t want to fire it until I look into the issue further.

Thanks for any input y’all might have.

 

[64Springer]

The gremlin you searched for and found is not a problem.

If the cylinder locks up tight, shoot the gun and enjoy the gun.

That infinitesimal misalignment is a simple machining error.

And there is no reason to take the gun apart in search of more gremlins that are not there.

 

[Schutzer]

I hear you! Am not looking to complicate things, but I should have mentioned that the forcing cone is slightly offset to the same degree from the chamber as is visible from the front. Won’t that cause the ball to slam into the face of the cone, at least slightly?

 

[64Springer]

My take on it is that's why it's called a forcing cone.

To force/direct the ball into the barrel.

 

[Ed C.]

As I understand it, you have a good tight lock up on each chamber but they all do not line up perfectly with the forcing cone? Are you sure there is no play between the arbor and cylinder? Bolt and or cylinder notches are not worn? Make sure the bolt has little or no play in the frame slot. That misalignment at the nipple notch seems very slight. I tend to do risky things and I'm not advising you to shoot the gun and see what happens. But that is what I would do.

 

[HSmithTX]

You will need to determine if the alignment is bad enough to cause an issue. I would shoot it to find out, but that's me. A range rod that fits the bore well will tell you how far off you are at the cylinder, if it's off much it will not shoot as well as if it was dead nuts lined up but how much is too much? Hard to say without shooting it, it might be plenty accurate as is. Barrel leading can also be worse if it is off much. Moving the bolt isn't that hard but it isn't that easy either, to correct the alignment provided all 6 holes are off the same amount in the same direction. Several ways to do it, most involve either making an offset bolt or welding up and recutting the slot the bolt comes through. Some will recut the cylinder notches and fit an oversize bolt, that works too and is the certain make it perfect way to do it but is probably (definitely) out of the scope of a home shop that doesn't do a lot of revolver work. Recutting notches and fitting a new bolt would allow correction of alignment error that isn't the same amount or direction on each charge hole but I would guess it would cost way more than the pistol did to begin with.

 

[Ed C.]

You will need to determine if the alignment is bad enough to cause an issue. I would shoot it to find out, but that's me. A range rod that fits the bore well will tell you how far off you are at the cylinder, if it's off much it will not shoot as well as if it was dead nuts lined up but how much is too much? Hard to say without shooting it, it might be plenty accurate as is. Barrel leading can also be worse if it is off much. Moving the bolt isn't that hard but it isn't that easy either, to correct the alignment provided all 6 holes are off the same amount in the same direction. Several ways to do it, most involve either making an offset bolt or welding up and recutting the slot the bolt comes through. Some will recut the cylinder notches and fit an oversize bolt, that works too and is the certain make it perfect way to do it but is probably (definitely) out of the scope of a home shop that doesn't do a lot of revolver work. Recutting notches and fitting a new bolt would allow correction of alignment error that isn't the same amount or direction on each charge hole but I would guess it would cost way more than the pistol did to begin with.

Good advice and fixes but if I had to have that stuff done I'd use it as a paperweight and buy a new gun.

 

[Schutzer]

As I understand it, you have a good tight lock up on each chamber but they all do not line up perfectly with the forcing cone? Are you sure there is no play between the arbor and cylinder? Bolt and or cylinder notches are not worn? Make sure the bolt has little or no play in the frame slot. That misalignment at the nipple notch seems very slight. I tend to do risky things and I'm not advising you to shoot the gun and see what happens. But that is what I would do.

Yes, correct, cylinder locks up solid. Unfortunately I will have to wait a few days before I can disassemble it, but at that time will examine the innards. Will need to go to a craft store or something to find a dowel of approximately the right diameter to check for how far off the cylinder is. And yep I’ll probably shoot it through a chronograph to see if it’s significantly slower than other comparable guns, which may indicate a bad obstruction. Thanks for your response!

 

[Schutzer]

You will need to determine if the alignment is bad enough to cause an issue. I would shoot it to find out, but that's me. A range rod that fits the bore well will tell you how far off you are at the cylinder, if it's off much it will not shoot as well as if it was dead nuts lined up but how much is too much? Hard to say without shooting it, it might be plenty accurate as is. Barrel leading can also be worse if it is off much. Moving the bolt isn't that hard but it isn't that easy either, to correct the alignment provided all 6 holes are off the same amount in the same direction. Several ways to do it, most involve either making an offset bolt or welding up and recutting the slot the bolt comes through. Some will recut the cylinder notches and fit an oversize bolt, that works too and is the certain make it perfect way to do it but is probably (definitely) out of the scope of a home shop that doesn't do a lot of revolver work. Recutting notches and fitting a new bolt would allow correction of alignment error that isn't the same amount or direction on each charge hole but I would guess it would cost way more than the pistol did to begin with.

Good gosh that’s way beyond my abilities, and probably way beyond what the gun is worth. For all I know it hasn’t been disassembled and cleaned since the 80s so hopefully once I take it apart, clean it well, and reassemble, it might be better. If not, I’ll just shoot it and see if it’s inaccurate or slow… if not, I wont mess with it! A couple of YouTube videos say to mess with the hand by sanding the fingers a little, don’t know if that would help.

 

[45D]

Really, all you need is a flashlight and just look down the barrel. You can see a crescent shape of the chamber if it's not lined up.

Mike

 

[Blackpowderart]

To fix the miss aligned cylinder to barrel, since they are all the same....I believe you can purchase a new bolt and grind on one side over the other to fix if it's only slightly out of line. I think that will work anyway. It should , but only if the new bolt is wider than the notch to begin with. If it's not , and you cylinder is over rotating the barrel , you would...with the gun in your hand pointed away from you, sand the left side of the bolt until you could turn the cylinder back to where you want it, then find someone who could put a little weld on the right side of the bolt and then you go home and while only sanding the right side the time...fit the bolt to the notch and there you go.

 

[Stantheman86]

Just load 1 round in it and fire the thing with a light 15 or 20 grain load .

If it hits paper and does ok, load up 6 and roll through a cylinder.

Could it be that the hammer cutout is a little off, and the chamber is not misaligned at all?

The brass was softer in those older guns than the current brassers which use a better alloy , so keep the loads very light.

 

[Schutzer]

To fix the miss aligned cylinder to barrel, since they are all the same....I believe you can purchase a new bolt and grind on one side over the other to fix if it's only slightly out of line. I think that will work anyway. It should , but only if the new bolt is wider than the notch to begin with. If it's not , and you cylinder is over rotating the barrel , you would...with the gun in your hand pointed away from you, sand the left side of the bolt until you could turn the cylinder back to where you want it, then find someone who could put a little weld on the right side of the bolt and then you go home and while only sanding the right side the time...fit the bolt to the notch and there you go.

Thanks, I think I followed that! What I will do is take photos of the parts next week when I disassemble it and see what you guys think.

 

[Schutzer]

Just load 1 round in it and fire the thing with a light 15 or 20 grain load .

If it hits paper and does ok, load up 6 and roll through a cylinder.

Could it be that the hammer cutout is a little off, and the chamber is not misaligned at all?

The brass was softer in those older guns than the current brassers which use a better alloy , so keep the loads very light

The face of the forcing cone is offset from each of the chambers to the same degree, so I’m afraid it’s not just the cutout.

As for loads, I need the ball to achieve at least 800 FPS (with .454 to get minimum 200 ft-lbs of energy), which I’ll check with a chronometer. If I can’t get at least that out of it I’ll resell it, would do me no good to carry a peashooter.

 

[BillRob]

I may have misunderstood your comment, but it sounds like you might be looking for a carry firearm? If that is the case, I really don't think a black powder gun is the answer. Great hobby, etc. but not the right weapon when someone's life is on the line. Either way, best of luck with your new revolver!

 

[Ed C.]

The face of the forcing cone is offset from each of the chambers to the same degree, so I’m afraid it’s not just the cutout.

As for loads, I need the ball to achieve at least 800 FPS (with .454 to get minimum 200 ft-lbs of energy), which I’ll check with a chronometer. If I can’t get at least that out of it I’ll resell it, would do me good to carry a peashooter.

Are you looking for a self defense gun, hunting, or punching paper? If SD, MPO would be to get a good reliable unmentionable.

 

[45D]

The face of the forcing cone is offset from each of the chambers to the same degree, so I’m afraid it’s not just the cutout.

As for loads, I need the ball to achieve at least 800 FPS (with .454 to get minimum 200 ft-lbs of energy), which I’ll check with a chronometer. If I can’t get at least that out of it I’ll resell it, would do me good to carry a peashooter.

Schutzer, how did you determine that the f.c. is offset? It may just be the bore is not visually in line with the barrel material. Did you look down the barrel with a flashlight? Outside dimensions can be all over the place but still have bores and chambers in line.
Regardless of your reason for it being your choice of carry ( it's really nobody's business . . .) I would recommend upgrading to a steel frame revolver in .44 . I did a "blind" test years ago with 2 brass frame revolvers owned by two different folks. Built to tight tolerances and a .0025" endshake, I asked them to load / shoot them as if they were steel framed revolvers. They did so and never have had a problem. So, it can be done but if I were to bet my life on one, I'd get a steel one.
Another thought would be, if you're not "comfortably" "hands on" , a steel 5 1/2" Remington (.44 cal) may be a better choice . . .

Mike

 

[Schutzer]

Are you looking for a self defense gun, hunting, or punching paper? If SD, MPO would be to get a good reliable unmentionab

all of the above, though I’m not sure if my state(s) allow these revolvers for hunting.

 

[Schutzer]

Schutzer, how did you determine that the f.c. is offset? It may just be the bore is not visually in line with the barrel material. Did you look down the barrel with a flashlight? Outside dimensions can be all over the place but still have bores and chambers in line.
Regardless of your reason for it being your choice of carry ( it's really nobody's business . . .) I would recommend upgrading to a steel frame revolver in .44 . I did a "blind" test years ago with 2 brass frame revolvers owned by two different folks. Built to tight tolerances and a .0025" endshake, I asked them to load / shoot them as if they were steel framed revolvers. They did so and never have had a problem. So, it can be done but if I were to bet my life on one, I'd get a steel one.
Another thought would be, if you're not "comfortably" "hands on" , a steel 5 1/2" Remington (.44 cal) may be a better choice . . .

Mike

I’ve thought of what you suggest— that it may just be the outer dimensions that are off kilter. And I keep trying to look down the barrel with the flashlight but not having too much luck yet, nothing is reflecting back up? And ugh, it looks really dirty in there. Like I said I’ll have to wait until next week (all my tools are in Florida where I’ll be heading) and then I‘ll find out exactly what’s going when I take it apart.

I do have new steel frame revolvers— new Pietta steel Navy in .44 and a full-size Remington 1858. However, like I said they just don’t feel anywhere near as good as this one. They are more rattle-y, more jiggly, the handles are shaped less ergonomically… this brass one just feels super tight, the cylinder locks up tight, the hammer spring must be SUPER strong because the hammer pull is hard— which I’m hoping will mean fewer cap jams than my steel ones (even with Slix shot cones, cap jams on my steel ones are not uncommon). Plus, this one is lighter (because the cylinder is the original style, with the larger forcing cone, so it looks more like the original Navy in .36). I forgot to mention, this brass one also has a tall front site, which I’m guessing will mean it’s more point-of-aim. I’ve seen photo of these guns from that era and this is the only one I’ve seen that has a tall front site (as opposed to the tiny nub on modern Pietta clones). Also, the Remington 1858 is HUGE, and I’m a small guy. Concealing the Remington for me would be like trying to conceal a cannon! So as you say, maybe a 5 1/2” Remington would be better, though operating them is nowhere near as smooth as the Colts. Anyway, I hope this gun works out. I may make a YouTube video about it. If it doesn’t, I’ll probably resell it.

 

[Stantheman86]

I'd say take it apart, clean everything really well. Pop 6 caps on the nipples to make sure the nipples fit your caps , then test fire

The ball leaves the chamber at like 200fps, into the forcing cone where the burning powder and barrel give it the velocity. A little bit of an off Center entry won't matter. We're not talking a .454 Casull . Half my cap and ballers probably have visibly off-center chamber and bore alignment

There's a reason why Freedom Arms prides themselves on laser alignment of the chambers and bore , because most production revolvers don't have perfect alignment or the "lockup slop" centers the chamber upon firing

.44 percussion revolvers did the job 150+ years ago and they'll do the job now. If that's what you have to legally carry, make sure it works, carefully load it and carry it with 5 rounds in it