Help with Identification

[Claude Mathis]

The image below was posted in another topic, regarding the Seminole. Can anyone shed some light on whether this is a facsimile of a real gun or is it the artist's imagination at work?

Detail:

 

[mikelange]

It almost looks like a matchlock of some sort. The cock, or whatever the "U" shaped piece attached to the lock area of the gun is, strongly resembles a matchlock serpentine. What appears to be an ornate and oddly-shaped triggerguard might be matchcord wound around the lock area of the gun.

That said, I tend to think that, even if it's a representation of an actual firearm, there was a good deal of artistic license taken.

Neat picture, though.

 

[Big John]

Nice artist rendering.

 

[Claude Mathis]

It almost looks like a matchlock of some sort. The cock, or whatever the "U" shaped piece attached to the lock area of the gun is, strongly resembles a matchlock serpentine.

Could be, but the painting was done in 1857, so I wouldn't think that a matchlock would be portrayed.

 

[gmww]

Interesting. I was thinking matchlock too. Underhammer maybe? Would explain the extra loop infront of the trigger?

:thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I would say that a great deal of artistic license was taken. Ergonomically speaking, this gun would be a nightmare. For one thing, a user wouldn't be able to sight down the barrel--the comb is too high.

 

[jlynn]

Claude-If you have the Lindsey book (the one with color photos), ceck out the photo of the pilllock rifle and compare to the hammer on th Seminole painting. The tguard looks pure fantasy on the Seminole and I do not know what a Seminole would be doing with a pilllock-Good a guess as any I suppose

 

[musketman]

It almost looks like a matchlock of some sort. The cock, or whatever the "U" shaped piece attached to the lock area of the gun is, strongly resembles a matchlock serpentine.

Could be, but the painting was done in 1857, so I wouldn't think that a matchlock would be portrayed.

We have artist today painting pictures from all eras, whos to say that the painter of this particular picture back in 1857 didn't like the matchlock era???

 

[mikelange]

Plus we have natives in remote areas still using muzzleloaders, which in our era of easy access to technology is a lot more far-fetched an idea than a matchlock still being in use in the mid-1800's.

All in all, though, I'm leaning more toward an artist's imaginary idea of gun, having little or no basis in reality.

 

[patch knife]

I would say that a great deal of artistic license was taken. Ergonomically speaking, this gun would be a nightmare. For one thing, a user wouldn't be able to sight down the barrel--the comb is too high.

Ditto , it doesn't look like anything I would want to shoot . I don't know about those clothes either , that guy looks like a real dandy :haha: .

 

[Claude Mathis]

I would say that a great deal of artistic license was taken. Ergonomically speaking, this gun would be a nightmare. For one thing, a user wouldn't be able to sight down the barrel--the comb is too high.

Ditto , it doesn't look like anything I would want to shoot . I don't know about those clothes either , that guy looks like a real dandy :haha: .

I know nothing of the Seminole or their gear, but I often wonder if some paintings aren't done without posed subjects and the artist simply adds his own "impression", based on what he's heard or the image he wants to project? Kind of like how the news media will spin a story to promote their agenda.

 

[rich e]

I think its probably a matchlock of some sort, taken from a spanish explorer, however why do you think its a seminole, looks to be a pretty arid area, with yucca plants and prickly pear cactus.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I'd say artist's license. Note that the cheekpiece is inches above the bore line and would be difficult if not impossible to sight or point.

Trigger is backwards, too. :haha:

 

[Claude Mathis]

...however why do you think its a seminole, ...

"Noco Shimatt-Tash-Tanaki, Grizzly Bear, Seminole Chief. In: "United States and Mexican Boundary Survey. Report of William H. Emory ...." Washington. 1857. Volume I. P. 52. Library Call Number F786 .U45 1857."

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/library/libr0140.htm

 

[Zonie]

Now That's really wierd!

Does the author say why a Seminole Chief is in a book dealing with the boarder between Mexico and the U.S.?
AIR, this survey extended from Texas to Yuma Arizona. Lots of tribes in that area but I've never heard of the Seminoles getting that far West.

Maybe he got that gun at a pawn shop when he was passing thru New Orleans? :grin:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I think the artist was doing a portrait and the gun was secondary as long as he threw in filler it would look good.

I would not look to it as a discriptive view of any arm.

My cent and a half. What? I'm cheap.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greeting Rich e,

Seminole/Kickapoo Indian Scouts were a major part of the USA Army garrison at Fort Clark, Texas. Captain John Bullis used the scouts extensively while chasing the Apache, Victoria and other marauding Indians.

There is still a Seminole Cementery at Fort Clark Spring today.

Fort Clark Springs is directly across Texas Hwy 90 from Brackerville, Texas and on the Eastern transitional edge of the Chihuahuan Desert.

Brackettville is where John Wayne filmed his movie ALAMO in 1960.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I'm going with "artistic travesty"! Since there's no trigger shown anywhere, or at least it appears so, I'd have to guess the artist just painted a gun-like weapon for his subject. Not the first time an NDN subject was illustrated with a gun-like weapon.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The kickapoo are an Illinois/Indiana tribe, that was pushed out of our state in 1836, and forced to move to Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, and Oklahoma. If there were Kickapoo Scouts working in West Texas with Seminole Indian Scouts, it was a matter of chance, as there is no relation between the two tribes. The seminole Indians never made peace with our Government, and remained In Florida, even after the great removal, and Trail of Tears in the 1830's. They are still there today, and refuse to accept government offers of payments for the lands taken from the tribe. Talk about TOUGH!

 

[rich e]

john, thanks for clearing that up for me. I always thought they were an everglades tribe, and just thought it was odd to see those cactus in the picture.