Help with new 1851

[M. De Land]

The screw heads can be repaired (peened or welded as needed and re-cut) and it looks like the bolt needs a dressing as it seems to be chewing into the cylinder and lead edge of the notches. It drops a bit early but I consider that a plus for damping/braking cylinder inertia and would leave that alone. The arbor is probably short and you may want to address that but I've not found it to be critical to function or accuracy although it does make getting consistent barrel/cylinder gap easier to achieve than using a gauge.
The biggest deal on these as far as accuracy is concerned is alignment (chamber/bore) and consistent chamber mouth diameter. If conicals are planned then the chamber mouths work best when of groove diameter.

 

[Smokerr]

It takes a little on the spot common sense. The chain fires that start on the back end of a cylinder are the result of caps that may have fallen off nipples of unfired chambers or are exceptionally loose.

I will continue to disagree with the rear entry chain fire. I have seen it tested and not to occur. I have also had a lot of caps fall off and have to resort to pinching even on the Slix Spring Cones (they recommended the shorter ones for the 58 Pietra and those may not work as well as the longer ones)

Oval chambers would for sure allow a chain fire. My take is any time I am in an iffy area (.451 balls) I use a treated wad. I have tested those in front of bullets (removed before firing) and the flame does not penetrate more than a bit of the surface.

.454 balls on a normal chamber will be no problem.

 

[45D]

If the bolt drops much sooner it'll be dropping at half cock making it a little slow and aggravating to load!! The bolt spring is probably much too heavy which is why it's 1- scaring the cylinder and 2- causing the earlier and earlier bolt drop ( it doesn't get better with more and more wear).
Colt didn't issue feeler gauges for setting the wedge so correcting the arbor would be the "correct" thing to do.

Mike

 

[Ed C.]

I will continue to disagree with the rear entry chain fire. I have seen it tested and not to occur. I have also had a lot of caps fall off and have to resort to pinching even on the Slix Spring Cones (they recommended the shorter ones for the 58 Pietra and those may not work as well as the longer ones)

Oval chambers would for sure allow a chain fire. My take is any time I am in an iffy area (.451 balls) I use a treated wad. I have tested those in front of bullets (removed before firing) and the flame does not penetrate more than a bit of the surface.

.454 balls on a normal chamber will be no problem.

I just finished reading several accounts on this forum of people attesting to rear entry chain fires. Enough that for the sake of safety it is a good practice to make sure caps fit properly. I've never had a chain fire so can't speak from personal experience except to say that I take care of both ends of the cylinder when loading. Yeah, I've seen the video of some guy trying to cause a rear entry chain fire. Doesn't mean much. I could probably go out and run a stop sign a half dozen times without getting hit. Doesn't mean it can never happen.

 

[M. De Land]

I will continue to disagree with the rear entry chain fire. I have seen it tested and not to occur. I have also had a lot of caps fall off and have to resort to pinching even on the Slix Spring Cones (they recommended the shorter ones for the 58 Pietra and those may not work as well as the longer ones)

Oval chambers would for sure allow a chain fire. My take is any time I am in an iffy area (.451 balls) I use a treated wad. I have tested those in front of bullets (removed before firing) and the flame does not penetrate more than a bit of the surface.

.454 balls on a normal chamber will be no problem.

Rear chain fire does happen especially with ill fitting caps and when one has a weak main spring and the caps are blown off under the hammer drop or the hammer is blown back to half cock.
If the gun has a strong main spring then even a loose cap will seal off the nipple under hammer spring tension and other de-capped chambers will be unaffected.
If you have ever seen slow motion photos of some percussion guns fired near dark you can often see a lot of fire coming out the nipple as well as barrel /cylinder gap and muzzle.

 

[springfield art]

FWIW Taylors and Cimarron also offer screw's and replacement sets for Uberti/Pietta revolvers. I got some from them cheaper than VTI. The difference between Rem 10 and CCI 11's is that the skirt of the Rem 10's is longer than the CCI 11's. This helps in the retention of the cap before and after firing. They are of the same internal dimensions. Rem 11's have a short skirt and larger internal and if at all possible stay away from CCI 10's as they are alot smaller internally and won't fit down on the majority of nipples found on todays reproduction percussion revolvers. You have to push them down onto the nipple with alot of pressure with a wooden dowl (if you can get them seated at all) and can be slightly dangerous to do. Caps do take a pretty hard hit to get them to ignite, but I never felt comfortable doing so on a loaded revolver the time I bought five tins of them not knowing of their smaller internal size. They didn't fit any of the Colt/Remington/Ruger models I have (14) except one Pietta Remington cylinder and at that was a very tight fit. Still have around 450 or that 500 taking up space. A few inexperienced and/or unknowledgeable shooters will try and tell you Rem and CCI 10's are of the same dimensions as are Rem 11's and CCI 11's. Don't believe them, they know not what they are talking about.

I didn't know much of this. Thanks.

 

[springfield art]

I gotta look into Slix

 

[CaptainVane]

I gotta look into Slix

Art, just get them. Cost a few beers. My gunsmith preached them when i got into BP. I now have on all mine. They work. I cannot understand why there is any discussion on the matter. They work. Just get the dam things.
Edit. All caps fit them. Rem 10, 11. RWS 1075 and plus. CCI 11. They all fit. So many threads about what fits what. Pinching caps to fit? Seriously? Its crazy. Get the dam slix and stop worrying about what caps fit what.

 

[BPNOOB]

I’ve been processing all the input from various sources, and I’m in danger of information overload! There does seem to be a clear consensus on slixshot nipples, must have. But about chainfires, I need clarification on something: regardless of what causes them, are they truly more of an annoyance than actuaiiy dangerous? As a newbie, chainfires appear terrifying but maybe it’s yet another thing I’m needlessly fretting about

 

[Ed C.]

I’ve been processing all the input from various sources, and I’m in danger of information overload! There does seem to be a clear consensus on slixshot nipples, must have. But about chainfires, I need clarification on something: regardless of what causes them, are they truly more of an annoyance than actuaiiy dangerous? As a newbie, chainfires appear terrifying but maybe it’s yet another thing I’m needlessly fretting about

If you use wads over powder or a lube over the RB's and decent fitting caps, you do not need to have chainfires on your worry list. They are rare and usually cause no damage to the gun or shooter. But, hey, it is an unexpected and uncontrolled explosion so anything is possible.

 

[CaptainVane]

I have shot different size balls and never had a chain fire. sometime wads, sometimes not. Never used grease, tallow, bear shat over the ball. I dont get the magic ring and dont believe in it. I have used multiple types of caps and never pinched a one.
I have shot thousand of rounds thru my TC Hawken Flinter and never had a chain fire on that.
Can it happen? Can you get hit by lightning? Can a shark eat you? Can Trump select you as his VP? Maybe, but dont count on it.

 

[BPNOOB]

I have shot different size balls and never had a chain fire. sometime wads, sometimes not. Never used grease, tallow, bear shat over the ball. I dont get the magic ring and dont believe in it. I have used multiple types of caps and never pinched a one.
I have shot thousand of rounds thru my TC Hawken Flinter and never had a chain fire on that.
Can it happen? Can you get hit by lightning? Can a shark eat you? Can Trump select you as his VP? Maybe, but dont count on it.

I’m confused, is a ‘TC Hawken Flinter’ a multi shot gun?

 

[CaptainVane]

I’m confused, is a ‘TC Hawken Flinter’ a multi shot gun?

No, glad you picked up on that. Sorry to confuse you. Bad humor. My point is don’t worry about a chain fire, ive never seen one except on utube. Extremely rare. Enjoy the gun.

 

[deGheyn]

FWIW, CCI #10's don't fit my Uberti factory nipples. Best bet is Slix cones as CatainVane suggested. I've never seen Remington #10's. RWS 1075's work good on both Uberti factory & Slix. RWS from Grafs link

 

[BPNOOB]

No, glad you picked up on that. Sorry to confuse you. Bad humor. My point is don’t worry about a chain fire, ive never seen one except on utube. Extremely rare. Enjoy the gun.

THAT is almost the universal message I’m getting, ‘quit worrying and shoot the gun’!

 

[BPNOOB]

FWIW, CCI #10's don't fit my Uberti factory nipples. Best bet is Slix cones as CatainVane suggested. I've never seen Remington #10's. RWS 1075's work good on both Uberti factory & Slix. RWS from Grafs link

I have an ASP circa 1977, from which I understand is closer to uberti than pietta

 

[M. De Land]

Hello there! You can call me Erk or bpnoob. Before we dive into all the information I seek, allow me to tell you how I got here. I’ve fired many weapons throughout my youth, mostly WW2 era, but ever since I went plinking with my pal’s BP pistols, I’ve really wanted one of my own, preferably a colt and although I never followed through on that desire it lodged itself in my brain for 20ish years, UNTIL... my missus and I are Vintage dealers, and while exploring the scene in our new town (moved from PNW to Palm Springs CA) I came across a case with several models of Italian BP pistols within it. After looking them over, I decided on the sweet .36 1851, but first I went home to wisely(!?!) do some research - much of it on this forum and on YouTube. I learned much useful info, but firstly that based on its apparent ‘new’ condition, I would be getting either a post 2000 made pietta or uberti piece; and parts and accessories are easily obtained for either model, provided they were made post 2000. So after 3 weeks of ‘research’, I went back to the stall and got the .36 1851. It was as new condition except for 3 slightly stripped screw heads on the frame. I got home with my new prize and began looking for the markings that identified it as uberti or pietta. I won’t bore you with the details of days of confusing and often contradictory research, but now I know that I have a ASP/Euroarms 1851 distributed by Lyman made in 1977(!). So thats my problem: how do I get parts for it? Where do I find them? But first how do I determine WHICH parts it needs? I can’t assume any available parts and accessories will work, certainly not simply since I have an older somewhat obscure model made by a company that no longer exists. I don’t even know what size nipple wrench I need or how to find out. I’m so confused! Am I overthinking? Help me before I have an aneurysm. And no, the shop will not let me return/exchange it but I would rather figure this out and keep it, it is a beaut. Sorry for the long initial post, I’m a wordy guyView attachment 318125View attachment 318126View attachment 318127

The top corners on the bolt dome which is much harder than the cylinder steel need to be chamfered and polished a bit to get rid of the sharp edges/corners that are carving up your cylinder drop zone and notches. I give them this treatment routinely at the first sign of galling with a few licks from a ceramic stone or diamond file..
I usually wait until the factory bolt spring gives up before replacing with home built stainless flat springs that have never failed me yet.
The flat stainless coil comes from a broken Luftkin tape measure drive spring I salvaged 30 years ago, is about half the strength of the factory spring and requires carbide to drill it and a Dremel cut off wheel to cut the finger slot. It has made quite a few bolt and other flat springs and is tougher than wire spring stock that I also make various springs from.
Factory upper, lower is the Luftkin stainless spring stock.
Flat springs have a slightly quicker response time than does coil wire springs and so are preferred in some applications like bolt springs.

 

[45D]

If you make your own spring, make the trigger side wider than the bolt side. You don't need any more than 4 lbs to operate the bolt. A heavier trigger side will be a better "adjusted" trigger pull start . The original springs were this way and the Italians reverse engineering got the combo spring backwards or they did it on purpose to hide "shoddy" action part function to get them out the door (which is why the bolt digs into the cylinder). Either way, doing it right will make for a better revolver.
Like this -

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Rear chain fire does happen especially with ill fitting caps and when one has a weak main spring and the caps are blown off under the hammer drop or the hammer is blown back to half cock.
If the gun has a strong main spring then even a loose cap will seal off the nipple under hammer spring tension and other de-capped chambers will be unaffected.
If you have ever seen slow motion photos of some percussion guns fired near dark you can often see a lot of fire coming out the nipple as well as barrel /cylinder gap and muzzle.

One more thing I should mention is that a gun that is blowing the hammer back to half cock can be a sign of burned out nipples and not necessarily a weak hammer spring. At any rate loose fitting caps and fire escaping from a nipple for either reason can and most likely will produce a chain fire eventually.

 

[Smokerr]

Chain fires can occur, but its going down to sub sized balls (.451 and with treated wads is as far as I will go). I have looked at treated Wads in front of balls and you do get a good blast into those so I can see it happening. That said for me they are insurance as none of those blast marks came through more than about 25% of the wad.

A note on Slix Springs, I was advised to the shorter cones for my 1858 Pietta, caps don't stick well, for that gun I would go with the longer ones. I am sticking with the original Cones on the 47 Walker and the ROA.

I do have to squeeze caps to keep on the ROA, 47 Walker and the 1858. Not that I care, as long as they stick on I am good. Yea the CCI are a tad longer but I have had to get what I could so that meant Remington in my case.