Hey guys, an iron sight question

[newarcher]

I am trying to teach myself how to use these iron sights that came with my rifle.

Here's my problem. I am trying to get a repeatable setup that I can use whether I am using the gun or my 11 year old son is. The problem is that my accuracy is affected by how close my eye is to my rear peep. But in low light while hunting I have to move my eye closer to the peep to see through it. In bright light, I can move my head back to make the aperature smaller and increase my accuracy.

Here's my setup (you can see the sight in the pictures): http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/240987/

I was thinking that I could exchange the rear post sight with this AR15 front sight that has a crosshair in it. I could align the front sight's rounded part atop the blade with the back post's crosshair. As long as things are tightened down, that would be repeatable exactly by my son.

Here's the sight: http://store.advancedmart.com/artyriducrfr.html

Thoughts?

Thanks!
New

 

[David W.]

I think you will find that your eye sight, your son's eye sight, your arm length and your son's arm length are different. :dead:

 

[tg]

Have you thought of trying the ytraditional front blade and a dovetailed rear sight with a V or U notch,these come to the eye very well when sighted to line top to top.

 

[newarcher]

Meaning?

If the gun is setup so that when the rear crosshair and the bead on the front sight are in perfect alignment (and the shot criteria are the same as used to sight the gun in--powder, etc.), the gun hits at 50 yards....then the gun will hit at 50 yards regardless of who is shooting it. Right?

I could be shooting it from my hip like the gunslinger and provided the target is 50 yards away and the front and rear sight are aligned as sighted in, what's the issue? The same would go if my son is shooting it, right? The sights are aligned to launch the ball the same distance and hit at the same spot (give or take a little).

Am I missing something and why the dead horse? Is this a sore subject or something?

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[newarcher]

I have but that would require much more expense to change everything out (possibly more tools to get the front sight out).

I like this setup, especially having the rear sight so far back. It is just that I find that the position of my cheek, how close my eye is to the rear sight, etc. changes the position of the shot.

I TRY TRY TRY to put that post in the middle of the reap aperature but at greater distances from the target, a smaller variance in placement of the sights results in greater variance.

I shoot a compound bow and use a sight very much like the setup I am proposing. Less chance of user error.

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[David W.]

Meaning?

If the gun is setup so that when the rear crosshair and the bead on the front sight are in perfect alignment (and the shot criteria are the same as used to sight the gun in--powder, etc.), the gun hits at 50 yards....then the gun will hit at 50 yards regardless of who is shooting it. Right?

I could be shooting it from my hip like the gunslinger and provided the target is 50 yards away and the front and rear sight are aligned as sighted in, what's the issue? The same would go if my son is shooting it, right? The sights are aligned to launch the ball the same distance and hit at the same spot (give or take a little).

Am I missing something and why the dead horse? Is this a sore subject or something?

New

Just my old timer's opinion. I've built rifles for both youth and adults. If you've hit the jack pot, let me know, I'll have learned something! Who knows, it may work perfectly, give it a whirl!

 

[newarcher]

Okay, I see. I am a member on other forums where the dead horse is one of those "here we go again" topics. Being new, I wasn't sure.

I shoot a compound bow and one of the biggest criteria for accuracy is the anchor point (I guess it could be said the rear sight). There are peep sights that have crosshairs and by putting the front sight pin in the middle of the peep's crosshair, it is good. Any shooter who can draw the bow and align the front and back will hit at the assigned distance.....provided there is adequate follow through, no torque, etc.

I'm not saying your are wrong, just trying to hash out exactly where you think my theory doesn't work. I am just trying to get a little more precision when placing the front sight in the rear.

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[David W.]

Okay, I see. I am a member on other forums where the dead horse is one of those "here we go again" topics. Being new, I wasn't sure.

I shoot a compound bow and one of the biggest criteria for accuracy is the anchor point (I guess it could be said the rear sight). There are peep sights that have crosshairs and by putting the front sight pin in the middle of the peep's crosshair, it is good. Any shooter who can draw the bow and align the front and back will hit at the assigned distance.....provided there is adequate follow through, no torque, etc.

I'm not saying your are wrong, just trying to hash out exactly where you think my theory doesn't work. I am just trying to get a little more precision when placing the front sight in the rear.

New

The biggest obstacle is the length of your arm compared to the length of your 11 year old son's arm. Unless he is an NBA candidate, he is going to have a different adjustment to make and stretch out further to the trigger. Secondly, his eye sight is different from yours. This is not to razz you. It is a fact of age and size. If your son is talented, he may be able to use the same set up that works for you. I really do not know. Sorry if I have offended you.

 

[newarcher]

Shoot no, no offense taken at all. The good news is that I take direction well and have a very low know it all propensity.

I may be fat and ugly but eyesight I have. Maybe it is hunting that keeps it sharp but I am still better than 20-20 right now.

My boy is 11 and stands up to my arm pit. However, I am 6'3" so he's got some arms. No doubt there will be some differences.

I don't know how this is going to work but I think I might try it. If I can put his eyeball, the crosshair of the back site, and the round part of the front site in a perfect line I THINK we will be okay. Now he may have to contort himself more to achieve that line, no argument there.

Fortunately, the gun we were given is fairly compact and there isn't a large reach vertically for him to get his eye in line with the sights like there is on my AR15's. I watched him shoulder it a couple times and it seemed to really shoulder well for him.

Thanks for the help.

Edited to add that the whole point of this discussion is that I want to get him hunting and want to take as many of the variables out of it to provide him with a successful time but most importantly a humane kill. All of this without putting a scope on the gun.

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[David W.]

I do not intend to be a know it all either. It is good that you are bonding with your son. Teach him well and make sure he knows the total importance of the second ammendment. Without it, we will lose all rights. And I had 20-20 vision, once.

 

[newarcher]

10-4 on that.

We built both he and my daughter their very own AR15 lower as a project last year. I don't have the uppers bought yet but the important parts are done. I figure that the odds are 50-50 that they won't be able to buy their own...and it gave me a chance to be a hoarder!

He really had a great time shooting this new muzzleloader, which made the gift that much more meaningful. These are really cool and as much as I hate to admit it, I am already looking around for another--perhaps a kit we can do together. This is as bad as black rifle disease!

 

[David W.]

Maybe you ought to consider a flintlock project. You will be surprised on how you will become hooked.

 

[Trench]

There's a third component to a sight and that is your eye and where it is placed on the butt of your rifle. Your cheek has to be at the same place every time or you will otherwise have a slightly different sight picture and your POI will be different.

So, if your son's facial dimensions are pretty much the same as yours and he can put his cheek where you do, it might not be that much of a difference.

 

[newarcher]

I have some cash and Bass Pro Shops cards that would pay for the Traditions kit from Bass Pro...but I am not sure of the quality.

What is the best way to build a quality rifle? Piece it together from parts off the net?

The stuff I have seen, the kits from BPS are hit or miss on quality.

 

[newarcher]

Really?

Interesting. I thought that there were just three pieces...front sight, rear sight, and pupil.

For instance, if my pupil is still on the same linear path as sighted, would it matter if my cheek was very close to the rear peep or all the way back at the recoil pad area?

My son would have to hold his cheek different than I to get his pupil on that linear plane with the sights. Any right or left wobble in his head would change POI but I would THINK that forward or backward movement of the pupil along the linear plane wouldn't change...would it?

Thanks for all the good information.

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[Trench]

I know that stock weld (cheek against butt) is an important aspect of marksmanship and has to be consistant. If you were ever in the the Army, they taught you to put your nose up against the charging handle of your M16 so that your cheek was always in the same position....so that your eye would line up exactly the same with the sights. I don't know what affect stock weld has on short ranges. It might be minimal, but at 100yds and further it makes a big difference.

I once shot a guys AR-15 that was sighted for him and I had to resight it so I could hit the bull at 100yds. I'd say it was off about 6 inches.

I've noticed the same thing when I shoot my father's GPR. We have two different POI's between the two of us when we shoot it.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Some folks turn their heads when shouldering a rifle, others do not. Guns that are used for hunting recoil some, so it's important to have proper gun fit with the face of the shooter to avoid injury.

In theory, your idea works, but in reality it falls just a little short, due to the issue of "getting the two blocks of wood together". Case in point is my son and his trade rifle. He has the Lyman rear peep sight, and he won't let me change-out the front sight from the original blade front cause he hits so well with it! He tells me he just treats it like a M-1 Garand and puts the front blade just under what he wants to hit. The rear peep is left alone. And his cheek is on the stock the same way every time he shoots.

As for low-light work with the Lyman peep: it comes with two apertures of peep and if it's really dark, just unscrew the peep altogether and you're left with a ghost ring rear sight and a front blade....put the blade in the middle of the ghost ring and let her rip! Good out to 50 yards, when you can just see the deer and what's behind it!

Dave

 

[newarcher]

Thanks all, I have learned something.

I will give the crosshair rear sight a try in combination of repeatability and teaching him to keep his stance consistent.

I sure would NOT want to put my nose right up against the charging handle if running a supressor!

Great site, great information. Thanks.

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[newarcher]

Dave,

Thanks, I believe it was you that gave me the idea to take the peep out which is a great one. It makes a ghost ring much like my AR15.

While looking through the ghost ring, I thought about rigging a crosshair made of fishing line somehow. Then I saw the post which is actually a front post and it looked like it would screw into my rear sight and give me the large aperature for low light and the precision aiming point of the crosshair.

New

 

[Zonie]

The sight you propose may work for you but it works differently than the aperture sight you have.

If you have a vision problem or you like being able to naturally focus on the front sight and the target at the same time the aperture site is the way to go.

These sights work because the eye and the brain naturally know where the center of the aperture is so you don't have to think about it.
When you look thru it and place the front sight on the target the rear sight is automatically aligned.

They also improve the eyes ability to focus. Sort of like a pinhole camera they are always set to focus at infinity.
This greatly helps people whos eyes need glasses see the front sight and the target.

The large sight you are proposing to use will not cause your eye to automatically focus at infinity because the aperture is too large to cause this effect.
That means if you have vision problems, this sight will not improve them.
Also, because the "crosshairs" are relatively thick and are close to your eye your eye will try to focus on them, not the front sight like they should.
Their thickness will also block out some of the target and the front sight.

IMO, these are not to be confused with a crosshair style sight used on a bow.
That sort of sight is located at arms length and is in effect, the whole sight. It is meant to be positioned on the target while your eye forms the "rear sight".

As others have said, go ahead and try it but I'm betting that it will only make matters worse.