Historical accuracy in big manufacturers

[FlinterNick]

Historical accuracy to a point is always open for debate, and points of view.

I’ve seen terrible gunmakers with huge gaps around lock plates and trigger guards excuse their poor workmanship because well... they saw an original with similar gaps.

I’ve even seen one gunmaker copy a pedersoli Brown Bess stock with an extra 4 inches on it, called it a 1755 era long land Brown Bess.

Educated research from well known authors and researchers and basing your work off of those researches is the only real way to get an accurate build.

Could pedersoli make a copy of a more accurate brown bess, probably yes but as Dave mentioned, there’s no money in it.

 

[hanshi]

Another way to consider the question is to differentiate between historically correct (authentic) and period correct. Just my take on it but when I hear "historically correct" what comes to mind is: is it a flintlock/percussion with the lock on the side and a ramrod under the barrel, etc. You can't call a stainless, plastic stocked or electric ignition gun H/C. I look at the technology of the gun as determining H/C or non H/C. Again it's just what comes to mind. Period correct is something else entirely. A rev-war era rifle, even if H/C cannot be P/C if it sports a percussion and so on. If it uses historically accurate technology & general build qualities, it might be called H/C, might. But that technology has to fit the time period to be P/C by this definition. And I'm not claiming this is the way it should be, just that it's what immediately comes to mind when I hear or read about it. This gives a good bit of leeway for claiming H/C but not necessarily P/C. Otherwise, I stand corrected.

 

[tenngun]

Another way to consider the question is to differentiate between historically correct (authentic) and period correct. Just my take on it but when I hear "historically correct" what comes to mind is: is it a flintlock/percussion with the lock on the side and a ramrod under the barrel, etc. You can't call a stainless, plastic stocked or electric ignition gun H/C. I look at the technology of the gun as determining H/C or non H/C. Again it's just what comes to mind. Period correct is something else entirely. A rev-war era rifle, even if H/C cannot be P/C if it sports a percussion and so on. If it uses historically accurate technology & general build qualities, it might be called H/C, might. But that technology has to fit the time period to be P/C by this definition. And I'm not claiming this is the way it should be, just that it's what immediately comes to mind when I hear or read about it. This gives a good bit of leeway for claiming H/C but not necessarily P/C. Otherwise, I stand corrected.

We are all playing, some of us try harder then others, but that just what we decide. The game should never become a chore.
Jack has a bench copy of a bess, he wants to play soldier. Will he fine enough others with the same desire to put together a squad?
Bob has a loyalist arms and 20%synthetic in his uniform. Can he join Jacks company?
Who’s going to have the most fun?
Can you be happy with what you got?
My SMR has a German lock, wrong for the style, my TFC is a centermark, less then perfect, but both make me happy. I know what’s wrong with them but I don’t mind.
If on the other hand those things ruined my fun they would have to go. Jack and Bob both take joy in a world that’s to full of troubles.

 

[billraby]

This makes me think of some of the Civil War guys. Some of them are insane about this stuff. You get the guys that won't eat anything for a week or two before an event because starvation makes it a more authentic experience. Wearing a uniform that was actually worn in battle is not historically correct enough if it was ever washed in the last 160 years.

 

[griffiga]

This makes me think of some of the Civil War guys. Some of them are insane about this stuff. You get the guys that won't eat anything for a week or two before an event because starvation makes it a more authentic experience. Wearing a uniform that was actually worn in battle is not historically correct enough if it was ever washed in the last 160 years.

Been there, done that.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Many of you guys just don't get it. The OP asked why the mass producers of muzzleloaders don't make more historically correct guns. So many responses are just irrelevant to that question.

dave

 

[Sam squanch]

The gunmakers need to be shown that folks that shoot these are becoming more sophisticated about the correctness of what they want to shoot and re-enact with. When they realize the market has more discriminating shooters and collectors, they MAY cater to them. Case in point- why can’t anyone manufacture a correct Allen pepperbox? Simple enough for old Ethan back in the day. No timing of a cylinder to a barrel to worry about. With CNC this should be a breeze.

 

[Sam squanch]

I forgot, Astra made a 22 caliber pepperbox, why can’t Uberti or pedersoli make one in 32?

 

[FlinterNick]

One way to look at why some brands wont go historically perfect is because maybe the owners think their products are historically accurate.

I don’t claim to be the most historically knowledgeable on certain norms but I am an accountant and I can stay that accurate is expensive perfect is costly. If your expenses don’t justify the Profit margin’s then there’s no point because you can make more money making a lesser quality product or henceforth lesser accurate product.

At some point perfection requires craft work which is something that a CNC machine just cannot do, Or can do with increased cost in materials equipment research and depreciation. Something as small as adding an inch of wood to the child with a Brown Bess buttstock Could cost a company it’s anticipate a profit margin or whatever their investors require to remain confident.

But don’t forget many of these manufacturers such as pedersoli and even the Indian companies do sell their product in a kit for which transfers the cost of labor.

 

[Nameless Hunter]

I would hazard the answer is... because the volume producers don't have to. How many companies are producing an off the shelf semi traditional muzzleloader? The only potential threat to Investarms, Pedersoli, and the rest of Italy, Inc. (in the realm of traditional muzzleloaders) that I see is Kibler. Not to knock Chambers, or any other builder of quality rifles, but Kibler appears to be the 1st muzzleloader builder (American or otherwise) who is setting up as a volume producer of muzzleloaders that are "mostly" historically correct. Competition (and education of the buyer) is what will force Italy, Inc to revisit their designs. Why spend money on a redesign if you don't have to.

 

[FlinterNick]

I would hazard the answer is... because the volume producers don't have to. How many companies are producing an off the shelf semi traditional muzzleloader? The only potential threat to Investarms, Pedersoli, and the rest of Italy, Inc. (in the realm of traditional muzzleloaders) that I see is Kibler. Not to knock Chambers, or any other builder of quality rifles, but Kibler appears to be the 1st muzzleloader builder (American or otherwise) who is setting up as a volume producer of muzzleloaders that are "mostly" historically correct. Competition (and education of the buyer) is what will force Italy, Inc to revisit their designs. Why spend money on a redesign if you don't have to.

Agree to an extent, Kibler makes two gun Styles so I don’t think Kibler should really be brought into the question of historical accuracy. When I think of Kibler I think easy. Kibler’s main draw is for those who want to make a rifle with minimal tools or resources, his kits are kitchen table kits For the most part. Now I’ve seen some amazing work on them, but they’re not the most complicated kits to work.

 

[FlinterNick]

I forgot, Astra made a 22 caliber pepperbox, why can’t Uberti or pedersoli make one in 32?

No demand.

 

[Sam squanch]

Hell, for the price of some of these pedersoli guns, you can get a Kibler! And I bet it’s a better gun!

 

[Sam squanch]

Anyone who played the board game Clue wants a pepperbox!

 

[Nameless Hunter]

Agree to an extent, Kibler makes two gun Styles so I don’t think Kibler should really be brought into the question of historical accuracy. Kibler’s main draw is for those who want to make a rifle with minimal tools or resources, his kits are kitchen table kits For the most part. Now I’ve seen some amazing work on them, but they’re not the most complicated kits to work.

Agree. That's why I say mostly. I think he's smart to keep to just two rifles at the present, until he can get his production capacity up. Only one thing hurts your growth worse than slow deliveries. Slow deliveries with QC issues. I have zero idea about his future plans for the size of his company, but getting swamped with orders for multiple lines of products that you can't ship in a timely fashion is a business killer.

 

[FlinterNick]

Agree. That's why I say mostly. I think he's smart to keep to just two rifles at the present, until he can get his production capacity up. Only one thing hurts your growth worse than slow deliveries. Slow deliveries with QC issues. I have zero idea about his future plans for the size of his company, but getting swamped with orders for multiple lines of products that you can't ship in a timely fashion is a business killer.

Expanding a product Line is a major decision, and usually will require an investment of capital and a minor downsize to capitalize on the costs. He supposedly plans on offering a fowler or two next year which I’m sure is going to eat up at least one quarter of profits And materials.

 

[FlinterNick]

Makes one wonder where the Indian Manufactures made their molds from, what originals were used, because some of their locks and furniture just doesn’t look like any originals I’ve ever seen.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I don't think wait time is a deal breaker, at least of those who value historically correctness and know the wait time to have a custom rifle built.

6 months for a Kibler opposed to 2 or 3 years for just about any custom builder looks like a bargain.

I like Jim's cautious business plan of expanding slowly and never sacrificing quality to have a shorter lead time.

I don't see the big companies following his lead, they don't have to, they will always have plenty of business from the rank and file every day guy who buys what he sees in a catalog.

 

[Sun City]

Some folks are just to tight to purchase quality!

 

[FlinterNick]

I don't think wait time is a deal breaker, at least of those who value historically correctness and know the wait time to have a custom rifle built.

6 months for a Kibler opposed to 2 or 3 years for just about any custom builder looks like a bargain.

I like Jim's cautious business plan of expanding slowly and never sacrificing quality to have a shorter lead time.

I don't see the big companies following his lead, they don't have to, they will always have plenty of business from the rank and file every day guy who buys what he sees in a catalog.

I agree, but the major factor with custom builds is getting a kit which takes a long time and then finding someone who can do the build for you, if you can’t do it on your own. It can be 1-3 year project.