Historical Loading and Safety

[TobJohn]

Are "apostle" bandoliers fun living history, or a great way to blow myself up? I have seen historic accounts attesting to their danger, but that is mostly because you have an entire unit of musketeers frantically handling slow match. Having an explosive on my chest and close to a match seems a little sketchy. They are really common amongst reenactors, so some level of safety must be assumed. They are also such an integral part of the history and aesthetic, so it would be shame to avoid them. Do any of you all shoot with them? If people generally agree to their safety, are there any good places to source them? I found an English maker that did a lot of distribution to USA, but it looks like Brexit put him out of business: Bandoliers for the 17th century Musketeer and other wood turned items.

In a similar vein, does anyone have any information on how Haken/Hakenbüchse/Doppelhaken were loaded with powder? I have a promising lead on having a replica 30 years war light haken (not sure how its categorized in English) made and wanted to load it with some authenticity. Unfortunately, the only information on this type of gun in English was from Michael Tromner, at least from what I can find. I fear he may have been the only one that could provide some input. The only related information I could find was this C&Rsenal video on a much later flintlock wall gun, that was loaded with paper cartridges:
Is it safe to assume they would have just used a flask or horn to store the powder?

 

[trettie]

A key aspect of matchlock safety is match control. Both ends of your match should be either in your hand or in the serpentine. Too often I see folks letting their match dangle and get blown out of the jaws when they give fire.

I find chargers as safe as any other method of handling powder. Pouring powder from a charging flask into a measure and then into the barrel probably has more opportunity for mischief. Paper cartridges are fine if you don’t mind the anachronism. If you use a charging flask, a blow-out panel can help avoid it becoming a bomb.

Perhaps the best safety practice is practice. The more you handle the piece and go through the loading drill, the less likely you are to mess up.

 

[TobJohn]

That’s great advice, thanks!

For bandoliers, when I get a piece where that’s appropriate, Ill take your advice and plan on practicing until I’m confident, but still get a set in the meantime.

The hook gun will use a normalish charge for a full sized musket, but will be the same height as me, so I’ll probably have to do the same for a while, until I have a good understanding of the manual of arms.

I’ve seen a lot of people advise putting the match on a pole/rail or table while reloading. Do you find this to be necessary?

 

[Canute Rex]

I made a match holder for myself, roughly based on a British grenadier's match case. Mine is a piece of 1-1/2" copper pipe about 8" long with an end cap either end. It has perforations on the bottom and outward side, and a hole in the top a bit larger than my match diameter. I built in rings on either side for a shoulder rope. It hangs on my left side. I put the glowing end of the match in there whenever I'm not putting it in the serpentine.

The good thing about a bandolier of powder bottles is that you are only exposing one powder charge at a time to the vagaries of the outside world.

 

[TobJohn]

When using the match case, do you have a powder container on your right-side, or not on your person? Do you have a picture of it?

I was worried that they could have a possibility of a chain reaction, but I guess they are designed with the lid working as a blowout panel and the charge being used would be at its furthest distance from the rest, when brought to the muzzle. That is also a good point about one at a time. Dumping 100ish grains of powder from a container into a barrel is certainly safer than an entire flask.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

John,
A human version of a jumping cracker sounds like something to see on YouTube!

Paper cartridges were used back into the 1500's, so you are safe if you make these.
Sometimes, the ball was tied by the spru to the paper case.

 

[TobJohn]

While I was aware of paper cartridges existing since the 1500s, my understanding is that they were widely varied in their adoption, so was unsure of their authenticity in some scenarios. With hook guns, because their deployment was more or less static, I was curious if they had some sort of system like a local point with powder containers that you would take to your gun, or a bunch of cartridges by the position you were expected to fight from. I feel like a bit of a dork for always referencing YouTube videos on this site, but might as well take advantage of them until they are banned by google. I did watch the capandball video on traditional cartridge making for wheellocks and he used that method.

 

[trettie]

That’s great advice, thanks!

For bandoliers, when I get a piece where that’s appropriate, Ill take your advice and plan on practicing until I’m confident, but still get a set in the meantime.

The hook gun will use a normalish charge for a full sized musket, but will be the same height as me, so I’ll probably have to do the same for a while, until I have a good understanding of the manual of arms.

I’ve seen a lot of people advise putting the match on a pole/rail or table while reloading. Do you find this to be necessary?

No problem putting your match aside while loading, just keep in mind if you want to shoot in ranks you’ll need to get comfortable holding it (with both ends lit).

I try to carry the minimum amount of powder necessary, in case there should be something amiss. I reload chargers with the match extinguished or set aside.

If I’m not firing from a bandolier, I have a relatively small charging flask and fill a measure, that then goes down the barrel. Loading directly from the flask is strongly discouraged.

I also sometimes carry small chargers in a leather hip pouch and just drop them after loading.

Paper cartridges are seen in the latter 16th century, but not in common use until well
into the 17th (when paper is less costly).

 

[TobJohn]

That makes a lot of sense.

I was aware that directly from the flask is discouraged. A situation where a pure adherence to historical accuracy is probably Ill advised, even if 17th century flasks do have neat built in powder measures in the nozzle.

You do reenacting with the JYF museums, right? Did they teach a specific safety procedure to new people, or was it follow the manual of arms and don’t be a *******?

 

[Rifleman1776]

I was aware that directly from the flask is discouraged. A situation where a pure adherence to historical accuracy is probably Ill advised, even if 17th century flasks do have neat built in powder measures in the nozzle.

Amen, Bro. We are not fighting wars and we are not expendable troops. 'PC' adherence can be stupid and deadly.

 

[tenngun]

Amen, Bro. We are not fighting wars and we are not expendable troops. 'PC' adherence can be stupid and deadly.

That’s a trueism. Safe has pretty relative meaning. I’ve tried the loading on the run thing and did my share of fast reloads. Fun…. But none to smart. Maybe my back turned yellow with age but I would never try it again

 

[Rató:rats]

That’s a trueism. Safe has pretty relative meaning. I’ve tried the loading on the run thing and did my share of fast reloads. Fun…. But none to smart. Maybe my back turned yellow with age but I would never try it again

I’ve always been interested in the stories of Kenton, Lew Wetzel, and Sam Brady being able to load on the run. I’ve wondered if their touch holes were larger than ours with our white lightning vent liners, allowing their guns to self prime from the main charge

 

[TobJohn]

At least in the 1500s, many matchlocks would have much larger touch holes than we are used to or make in our reproductions. I’ve seen references to wheel locks from that century that were large enough to self prime or allow easier use of taking a match to it, if the wheel lock isn’t working

 

[Rifleman1776]

I’ve always been interested in the stories of Kenton, Lew Wetzel, and Sam Brady being able to load on the run. I’ve wondered if their touch holes were larger than ours with our white lightning vent liners, allowing their guns to self prime from the main charge

I have competed in Simon Kenton run competitions (way back in my younger days). There was no way I could load while running. Had to stop for reloads. Besides, I found running with soft soled moccasins to be a risky thing.

 

[russellshaffer]

Here is the National Park Service's matchlock manual for exibitions. It is heavily balanced towards safety, no surprise here. It starts out pretty basic but then in part four it gets into the loading and fireing drill. It's actually a pretty good read. Safety with these things is quite important - I have had two unintentional discharges with my matchlock while I was trying to figure out the process. Both while the weapon was securely held and pointed downrange ( one even hit the target). Nothing dull about having powder and fire in close proximity. I would have done better to have used blank charges for the learning process.

 

[TobJohn]

That is an awesome resource! Thank you!

I am constantly impressed by the depth and quality of everyone's experience and knowledge on this site.

 

[tenngun]

At least in the 1500s, many matchlocks would have much larger touch holes than we are used to or make in our reproductions. I’ve seen references to wheel locks from that century that were large enough to self prime or allow easier use of taking a match to it, if the wheel lock isn’t working

I’m thinking that the German states often made their muskets well up to Napoleonic times with self priming touch holes

 

[Canute Rex]

When using the match case, do you have a powder container on your right-side, or not on your person? Do you have a picture of it?

I was worried that they could have a possibility of a chain reaction, but I guess they are designed with the lid working as a blowout panel and the charge being used would be at its furthest distance from the rest, when brought to the muzzle. That is also a good point about one at a time. Dumping 100ish grains of powder from a container into a barrel is certainly safer than an entire flask.

I sling my bandolier on my right side and the match case on my left. I tie off the dead end of my match to some point on my left side so if I drop it the lit end falls to my left.

If your bottles are capped tightly (a bit of beeswax on the mating surfaces helps, and also waterproofs) then the flame from a single bottle going off would probably stay single. I also made myself a leather priming flask so that if it should light up it would go "blap" instead of "boom."

 

[Snake Pleskin]

That’s a trueism. Safe has pretty relative meaning. I’ve tried the loading on the run thing and did my share of fast reloads. Fun…. But none to smart. Maybe my back turned yellow with age but I would never try it again

Probably just got smarter with age like most of us!

 

[tenngun]

Probably just got smarter with age like most of us!

Hienlien said ‘did you ever notice how much mature wisdom resembles being too tired’