Historically accurate example of Flint, Full stock, hooked breech, barrel wedges?

[WonkyEye]

I could use some direction, I don't know enough to even know what to search for. I want to try building my own longrifle, but, given the effort involved, I'd like it to be as historically accurate as possible for me to do given my skill level and knowledge. I'm not a historian, or even amateur history buff, so admittedly i'm in over my head and looking for suggestions.

The features I like and want are:

1. Flinter - PA has a dedicated flintlock late deer season, percussion is not allowed. Ideally this would be something with a waterproof pan design, a roller bearing on the frizzen, a fast lock time... i.e. all the benefits of a late flint design.
2. Hooked breech and wedged barrel keys - I really like the ability to remove the barrel for cleaning on my TC. I've heard there are other quick release designs for the breech but i'm unfamiliar with what they are.
3. Full stock - this is just aesthetics, but I like the look of a full stock rifle. A takedown style with a seperate forestock is an option, actually I think i prefer it to a fragile foreend on a one piece that might break once the barrel is removed. If I go with an actual full length stock, I would probably gravitate to a style with a bit more meat on the wood, I'm willing to spare the extra 1/2 pound
4. .50 Cal - ish. I don't want to be shooting golf balls, but i also want a caliber I can use and take whitetail with.
5. accurate - the 1:48 gets a bad rap from some saying it's a compromise, but others say it's great, and one fellow had quite a list of NMLRA competetions he won with 1:48. The original hawkens had 7 round bottom groves and 1:48 twist i believe and were regarded as very accurate to great distances for the day. I was leaning towards the same.
6. 32-36" barrel - I do want to use this for hunting, afterall, so i need to keep the length reasonable for the thick PA woods.

And with that list of features, I thought I wanted a full stock hawken, it seemed to tick all of the boxes, and I really like the look of an L&R late english lock with the waterproof pan, but there seem to be a LOT of skeptics that a flintlock hawken ever existed. Those who concede it might have existed cast more doubt on the 2 piece hooked breech. I might be able to defend the flintlock and full stock, but not the breech and wedged barrel keys in combination. And then there's the complexity of the hawken stock shape... which without an original to examine seems like it would be very hard for me to get right. If i ever start go to rendezvous or other living history type stuff, I don't want to have to defend a rifle that some say never existed, not if I put 100+ hours into building it. So, the question is, are there other historical examples that meet my list? I'm having a hard time finding specifics about museam pieces, even somehting like Old Betsy which I can see has the wedged barrel keys has very little info i can find online about the breech and I haven't been able to find detailed pictures or video of that part of the rifle.

 

[TDM]

I wouldn’t get set thinking you have to have a hooked breach. Believe me, I know where your coming from on that. I started out with TCs a long time ago and had to learn that barrels don’t have to come off to clean after shooting. Pinned barrels should remain in place except every year or so. While the Hawkens were made in a full stock, there’s no clear proof that I know of that they ever made a flintlock version. I used to think they did. A waterproof pan is better looked at as water resistant. My personal recommendation would be to purchase a Kibler Woodsrunner kit in .50 or preferably .54. You’ll get an easy to assemble kit that is relatively compact compared to other long rifles with a state of the art lock.

 

[Togo]

I agree completely with TDM's assessment. Kibler locks are tight and fast, the Kibler Woodsrunner comes with a Green Mountain 1:70 twist barrel giving superb accuracy with patched roundballs. These kits are a joy to put together giving you that personal satisfaction of doing something on your own. It seems like it would check most all of your boxes, and if you order now, you will be built and dialed in before you next deer season. Go to Kibler Longrifles website and do some exploring. https://kiblerslongrifles.com/products/woodsrunner-rifle-kit-pre-order

 

[BruceHH]

Togo, where do you get your information that Kibler uses a Green Mountain barrel? I think Kibler did use GM blanks at one time to produce their own barrel, but I am fairly sure the barrels are made by Rice now.

 

[Togo]

Togo, where do you get your information that Kibler uses a Green Mountain barrel? I think Kibler did use GM blanks at one time to produce their own barrel, but I am fairly sure the barrels are made by Rice now.

My 40 cal SMR is a 1:48 Rice, my 54 cal Woodsrunner is a 1:70 GM. My Southern mountain is a year and a half old. My WR arrived at my house in April 2023.

 

[sdilts]

Rice makes 32, 36 and 40 cal barrels for Kibler. 45 and up come from GM.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You don't have to restrict yourself to some flint version of a full stocked Hawken. Hook breeches and tangs (properly called standing breeches) with flat barrel keys were used by quite a few Golden Age long rifle makers. Andrew Verner and J. P. Beck come to mind immediately. Every new builder I've ever known, including myself, was enamoured by roller frizzens, "waterproof" pans, etc early in their building careers. That is until they learned that none of that stuff was all that important. With respect to lock choices go with Kibler's or Chambers late flint locks if you have to have a roller frizzen. Don't worry about the waterproof pan stuff. However, both the round faced English locks by Kibler and Chambers will perform just as well and perhaps even more reliably. The obsession with "fast" ignition is really something appropriate if you are shooting birds on the wing, which was the reason roller frizzens, short throw flint cocks, and stirrup tumblers were invented. If you are just shooting targets or deer hunting, the effects of those features will be largely invisible. Given your objectives, an 18th century English rifle in 54 caliber would be a good choice. Here is an example. Just disregard the bling and look at the style and guts of the rifle. The Chambers lock on this rifle successfully fired it 671 times without a misfire and using up only 10 flints. The fit and balance is far superior to any full stocked Hawken I've ever handled, and I've built 3 of those.

dave

 

[ligonierbill]

Now that puts us all to shame. I know Chambers sells a kit for an English gentleman's rifle, but the OP doesn't express a level of confidence that would recommend one. From what I read, Kibler kits are much easier. One feature not mentioned is the "shotgun" butt vs. the crescent on Hawkens and many PA rifles. Much more pleasant to shoot! My PA flintlock is a Chambers Edward Marshall in 58. (I'd post a picture, but it suffers in comparison to Dave's.) Nice shooter, very comfortable.

Regarding authenticity, unless you are a true reenactor, I wouldn't put too much weight on it. PA allows period dress in their season, but in the two weeks after Christmas, most 18th century hunters would have been holed up in a warm cabin.

TOTW sells a parts kit, precarved stock, and full size drawing for a full stock flintlock Hawken. True, no originals are known to exist, but given the date of the Hawken brothers St. Louis opening, it is likely they made some. To the OP: Good luck and have fun!

 

[Brokennock]

I could use some direction, I don't know enough to even know what to search for. I want to try building my own longrifle, but, given the effort involved, I'd like it to be as historically accurate as possible for me to do given my skill level and knowledge. I'm not a historian, or even amateur history buff, so admittedly i'm in over my head and looking for suggestions.

The features I like and want are:

1. Flinter - PA has a dedicated flintlock late deer season, percussion is not allowed. Ideally this would be something with a waterproof pan design, a roller bearing on the frizzen, a fast lock time... i.e. all the benefits of a late flint design.
2. Hooked breech and wedged barrel keys - I really like the ability to remove the barrel for cleaning on my TC. I've heard there are other quick release designs for the breech but i'm unfamiliar with what they are.
3. Full stock - this is just aesthetics, but I like the look of a full stock rifle. A takedown style with a seperate forestock is an option, actually I think i prefer it to a fragile foreend on a one piece that might break once the barrel is removed. If I go with an actual full length stock, I would probably gravitate to a style with a bit more meat on the wood, I'm willing to spare the extra 1/2 pound
4. .50 Cal - ish. I don't want to be shooting golf balls, but i also want a caliber I can use and take whitetail with.
5. accurate - the 1:48 gets a bad rap from some saying it's a compromise, but others say it's great, and one fellow had quite a list of NMLRA competetions he won with 1:48. The original hawkens had 7 round bottom groves and 1:48 twist i believe and were regarded as very accurate to great distances for the day. I was leaning towards the same.
6. 32-36" barrel - I do want to use this for hunting, afterall, so i need to keep the length reasonable for the thick PA woods.

And with that list of features, I thought I wanted a full stock hawken, it seemed to tick all of the boxes, and I really like the look of an L&R late english lock with the waterproof pan, but there seem to be a LOT of skeptics that a flintlock hawken ever existed. Those who concede it might have existed cast more doubt on the 2 piece hooked breech. I might be able to defend the flintlock and full stock, but not the breech and wedged barrel keys in combination. And then there's the complexity of the hawken stock shape... which without an original to examine seems like it would be very hard for me to get right. If i ever start go to rendezvous or other living history type stuff, I don't want to have to defend a rifle that some say never existed, not if I put 100+ hours into building it. So, the question is, are there other historical examples that meet my list? I'm having a hard time finding specifics about museam pieces, even somehting like Old Betsy which I can see has the wedged barrel keys has very little info i can find online about the breech and I haven't been able to find detailed pictures or video of that part of the rifle.

Please, please,,,, read and reread what @dave_person has to say.
Then, go read all his topics on gun building, both here and on the ALR forum. Some will be about the same between the gun between the two forums,,, but different questions will be asked,,, and answered.

 

[Grenadier1758]

There were a number of riles built with a fixed breech and tang with wedges. The English sporting rifles come to mind. @rich pierce and I have each built an H Deringer replica rifle. Rich's rifle is much nicer than mine. The Deringer replicas will have the fixed breech and wedges holding the barrel in the stock. It's no problem to pull the wedges, the rear lock bolt (which is through the tang) and the tang bolt to remove the barrel from the stock. Also, as @dave_person has stated, you don't have to remove the barrel from the stock to properly clean the rifle. There are no kit offerings for a Deringer rifle. That will leave the kit selection open to the Kibler lines. One could substitute wedges for pins in the stock, but that's not really necessary.

 

[waksupi]

FYI, the Hawken is probably the most difficult you can choose for a first build.

 

[tenngun]

While there were hooked breeches and wedged guns the historic trend we see is when hooked was the up and coming style half stocks were also.
Against the backdrop we can see the combo, full stock, wedged and hooked breech was a rarity

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I would not recommend standing hook breeches and sliding keys for a first build by any means. I would go with a Kibler Woodsrunner. High quality and a lot of work done for you correctly out of the box.

 

[WonkyEye]

Hi,
You don't have to restrict yourself to some flint version of a full stocked Hawken. Hook breeches and tangs (properly called standing breeches) with flat barrel keys were used by quite a few Golden Age long rifle makers. Andrew Verner and J. P. Beck come to mind immediately. Every new builder I've ever known, including myself, was enamoured by roller frizzens, "waterproof" pans, etc early in their building careers. That is until they learned that none of that stuff was all that important. With respect to lock choices go with Kibler's or Chambers late flint locks if you have to have a roller frizzen. Don't worry about the waterproof pan stuff. However, both the round faced English locks by Kibler and Chambers will perform just as well and perhaps even more reliably. The obsession with "fast" ignition is really something appropriate if you are shooting birds on the wing, which was the reason roller frizzens, short throw flint cocks, and stirrup tumblers were invented. If you are just shooting targets or deer hunting, the effects of those features will be largely invisible. Given your objectives, an 18th century English rifle in 54 caliber would be a good choice. Here is an example. Just disregard the bling and look at the style and guts of the rifle. The Chambers lock on this rifle successfully fired it 671 times without a misfire and using up only 10 flints. The fit and balance is far superior to any full stocked Hawken I've ever handled, and I've built 3 of those.

dave

Thank you, this is exactly the type of wisdom and knowledge - and direction I was hoping to receive in reply.

What I'm really lacking is the historical knowledge (and the humility that should talk me out of it ), and the experience of holding a variety of period longrifles in my hands to evaluate and note the small details and shapes.

I'm confident in my ability to shape wood and metal, and with my toolbox already having the tools I need. Maybe even more importantly , I'm confident in my ability to repair the inevitable mistakes. I've done inletting and carving. I've fabricated brass and steel parts. I'm confident in my ability to do so while replicating a pattern. (Probably way overconfident to the point of foolishness). What I want to do is build a rifle, not just assemble one.

I want to fit the breech plug, cut the dovetails, solder the thimbles, carve the stock (within reason. I'd like to find a blank with the ramrod channel and barrel channel already done because that seems the easiest to screw up without a jig to keep them perfectly parallel), inlet the tang, the barrel, the lock and trigger, file and polish the fittings, perhaps even fabricating some of them like the trigger guard, patch box, caps and esteuchions. I realize what I'm getting into and the time commitment. I'm not looking to be done in a month. I'm looking to have something for the rest of my life that I can say I truly built from as close to scratch as possible. If I had a way to hammer forge, and button rifle a barrel in the back yard I'd be attempting that too.

 

[ligonierbill]

Well, my apologies. I read your first post as less confident. By all means, get a copy of Recreating the American Longrifle by Buchele, Shumway and Alexander. I don't have the contacts handy, but there are a number of people that supply stock blanks, and many will cut the barrel channel and drill the ramrod hole. Just specify what barrel you have. Again, good luck and have fun.

 

[tenngun]

Thank you, this is exactly the type of wisdom and knowledge - and direction I was hoping to receive in reply.

What I'm really lacking is the historical knowledge (and the humility that should talk me out of it ), and the experience of holding a variety of period longrifles in my hands to evaluate and note the small details and shapes.

I'm confident in my ability to shape wood and metal, and with my toolbox already having the tools I need. Maybe even more importantly , I'm confident in my ability to repair the inevitable mistakes. I've done inletting and carving. I've fabricated brass and steel parts. I'm confident in my ability to do so while replicating a pattern. (Probably way overconfident to the point of foolishness). What I want to do is build a rifle, not just assemble one.

I want to fit the breech plug, cut the dovetails, solder the thimbles, carve the stock (within reason. I'd like to find a blank with the ramrod channel and barrel channel already done because that seems the easiest to screw up without a jig to keep them perfectly parallel), inlet the tang, the barrel, the lock and trigger, file and polish the fittings, perhaps even fabricating some of them like the trigger guard, patch box, caps and esteuchions. I realize what I'm getting into and the time commitment. I'm not looking to be done in a month. I'm looking to have something for the rest of my life that I can say I truly built from as close to scratch as possible. If I had a way to hammer forge, and button rifle a barrel in the back yard I'd be attempting that too.

One thing of note is the purpose of the forestock. Between the lock and the entry pipe the forestock is a handle. After the entry pipe the forestock exist to hold the ramrod pipes.
This area is painfully thin. Only about a 1/16 to an 1/8 inch thick
When the barrel is out its greatest desire is to snap off of its own weight.
Should you have ate something bad and now have the runs, you just take your barrel out, your bottom will be too tight to pass a drop for the next week.
Should you wish to do some carving on the stock you want to match your style. Most carving was giving away by the time wedges were coming in to style.
We see even cheap guns in the eighteenth centry had some sort of molding. Toward the end of the century carving and molding gave way to richer engraved metal work. Finer guns moved toward silver mountings, and or very complex brass designs.
By early nineteenth, when wedges were becoming common we see a movement toward plainer done.
In America we see the rise of federal light solid plain, and shaker became common, again light but plain shape, and that was transferred to guns

 

[deerstalkert]

about all i can add to what has already been said is, before you do each step in the build, study exactly what you are doing. some days the only thing i may achieve is drilling two holes or just deciding on placement of a sight. time is your friend, hurry is a deadly enemy.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Get a Woodsrunner.

You won’t regret it.

 

[54ball]

Thank you, this is exactly the type of wisdom and knowledge - and direction I was hoping to receive in reply.

What I'm really lacking is the historical knowledge (and the humility that should talk me out of it ), and the experience of holding a variety of period longrifles in my hands to evaluate and note the small details and shapes.

I'm confident in my ability to shape wood and metal, and with my toolbox already having the tools I need. Maybe even more importantly , I'm confident in my ability to repair the inevitable mistakes. I've done inletting and carving. I've fabricated brass and steel parts. I'm confident in my ability to do so while replicating a pattern. (Probably way overconfident to the point of foolishness). What I want to do is build a rifle, not just assemble one.

I want to fit the breech plug, cut the dovetails, solder the thimbles, carve the stock (within reason. I'd like to find a blank with the ramrod channel and barrel channel already done because that seems the easiest to screw up without a jig to keep them perfectly parallel), inlet the tang, the barrel, the lock and trigger, file and polish the fittings, perhaps even fabricating some of them like the trigger guard, patch box, caps and esteuchions. I realize what I'm getting into and the time commitment. I'm not looking to be done in a month. I'm looking to have something for the rest of my life that I can say I truly built from as close to scratch as possible. If I had a way to hammer forge, and button rifle a barrel in the back yard I'd be attempting that too.

OK.....
You have a great attitude.
You mention handling original or good contemporary guns. This is a great start.

John Phillip Beck is a great example.....
In photos his rifles can look robust. In person a Beck Rifle is dainty and fine....almost delicate in hand.
If all you have seen ate photos you will be really surprised when you hold and feel the real thing.

It takes time and lots of study to understand and feel the architecture. This is called....developing the “eye”. In other words it’s actually seeing what you are looking at.

Price........
I guess it all comes down to this. How much does it cost? How much does it really cost?
Starting from scratch from nothing, I’m going to say......
5-10K! Maybe more!
What!!!!!!!!!

Place/shop.....
Tools........
Consumables/finish materials......
Education/ books,clssses, shows, shoots. Online time........
Gaining the skill.......
Components........
Fuel/ shipping/travel time
When you really add all this up 5-10K is peanuts.
It’s a lifestyle change. That first “good rifle” from a blank will be the most expensive firearm you’ll ever hold.

It reminds me somewhat of old cars. That old 50 coupe bought for 3k cost a heck of a lot more than the initial purchase price to cruise in it. The shop, the tools, the time, all the little trips to the parts store.... the education. It’s hard to measure true cost.

A blank build....
the basic parts......
700 for an Appalachian poor boy to 1500 for a full house Longrifle. This is just the wood, barrel and furniture.
Classes and under a builder.......
These cost around 1000 for a week long class but at the end the builder will be well own his way.....
How much in gas does it cost?
Food?
Lodging?
^^^^^^
The same goes for traveling to shows.

Back to the old car analogy......
1950 Ford hubcaps are not that expensive but it’s a heck of a lot more than hubcaps.

My advice...........
Get the carved Woodsrunner in 50-54 caliber.
3 years ago that gun would have cost you 5-10k for a builder to build that gun for you.
It’s what right now?
1300-1500 bucks for a full house carved Virginia rifle that basically snaps together?

I hope you understand what I’m getting at. You are not buying that Woodsrunner to build......you would be buying it for the education. You are buying it to see and feel what a Longrifle really is. It will teach you more than you can fathom.
It’s a bargain.
Once you have it.....
Then you will be well into having the eye to build from a blank.
You are not buying for the “rifle” but the education.

I dare say the Woodsrunner with the carving option is the most incredible product offered for the modern muzzleloader builder in 50 years.

It’s years of classes and education......in hand.

 

[dave_person]

While there were hooked breeches and wedged guns the historic trend we see is when hooked was the up and coming style half stocks were also.
Against the backdrop we can see the combo, full stock, wedged and hooked breech was a rarity

Hi,
In America barrel keys and standing breeches were less common in the 18th century, though more common than most realize. Like I wrote previously, Beck, Verner, and Schuler used them. Use of standing breeches and flat keys was standard on all English sporting guns whether they were full stocked or half. Only cheap trade, livery, and military guns used pins and simple breeches after about 1750.

dave