Historically Incorrect, or (A Story of Thread Counting and Delrin Rods)

[Rudyard]

Rudyard, you and I, and anybody else who lives in the UK, knows that walking around the woods and using a rifle to hunt deer - over here it's called stalking - is a perfectly acceptable and legal way of burning powder and getting game. But ONLY where the land has been deemed shootable, and then only if it is a registered 'permission'. Getting togged up in 18th or early 19th C equipment and meandering around, even with a bunch of other folks of similar mind, shooting at 'marks', just any old where, as they seem to do in the USA, is something I'd like to see, but never will.

It's not a matter of it being government 'bumf' it is the law that prevents it from ever happening.

As a matter of some interest, whilst out 'going historic' were you wearing clothing and equipment contemporary with the firearm you were shooting?

Dear T I am quite aware of UK laws that's why I live in NZ ! The laws ARE Govt bumph No doubt about it .Re Historic togs yes I did some trips /hunts of a week or so duration with just a 60"x 4&1/2 half yards ' Fielimore' & the period shirt serving as attire & blanket (Plus the Dog ) In fact I was married in it at Fort Ticonderoga slept in it on the glacis the night before . In the bush I had a small pack, gun was flint50 cal English mid 18th my make but I've carried a Scots 45 cal Snaphance & a Swiss early flint After Felix Werder . Shoes or Plimsoles sometimes no 'Brogs' but close .We have such vast tracts of Crown Forests /National Parks of Native timber & deer are assessed as ' Noxious animals ' (Bit like left wing politiions ) No close seasons or fee .Go over my pics posted that what its like .Rairley if ever met other people being mostly with out tracks. Whats called 'bush bashing ' I was a fair bushman been over 17 years on search & Rescue if now Ime Knackered but still raise funds & write humerous accounts for our Newsletters .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Spikebuck]

I always thought this was one good explanation.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/why-tradition-matters.40973/post-475558

Thanks for posting that. I had never read that on here before.

If we expand the OP's post beyond the scope of this Forum, then that post from Claude certainly comes into play. Our own DNR in Minnesota has stated on numerous occasions (such as scopes on muzzleloaders, crossbows in archery season, etc.) that it considers these to be "social" issues. It can manage the deer herd with or without. Read that as adjust bag limits, alter season length, etc.

 

[j.robert.martin.ii]

I think there are those who see HC/PC as an integral part of their muzzleloading experience because their primary interest is in the period represented by the firearms they choose to shoot. In other words, a proper history buff who’s primary hobby is shooting. Then there are those who do not consider the period correctness of the accoutrements needed to shoot a muzzleloader because their primary interest is in firearms and the shooting sports and have little or no interest in the history represented by their firearm of choice. In other words, a shooter who’s choice of firearm is a bit ‘eccentric’ but otherwise, just a gun. (I am in one camp, so if I am misrepresenting your camp I’d love to know)

I see lots of threads that seems to show these two factions don’t seems to understand where the other is coming from, ie. “Why worry about that? Just use what looks good to you!” or “That’s a sketchy choice because one of those wasn’t around at the time your rifle represents.”

Perhaps a small discussion about why you are in the camp you are in would be helpful in regards to understanding each other....

...sort of a sitting around the fire passing around the peace pipe thread.

Thoughts?

Actually, I use what works for me... or, that which I can actually get my hands on. Delrin rods... seem to work... in my "Historically Incorrect Hawken Style short rifle" with screw adjustable rear sight. A 28" 50 caliber is probably not historically correct... but, it works. My 45 Thompson Center 45 Cal and 27" barrel... is also... probably not 'historically correct' . With all of that polished brass on it... it does look a lot like a rifle Robert Redford used in a movie wherein Redford portrayed some fictional character called... Jeremiah Johnson... I understand that some people like being history buffs with what they believe to be historically correct or period correct... equipment, props, and costumes... I just like using stuff that works. I enjoy seeing the historically correct and period correct stuff... I simply do not care to own all of that...stuff.

 

[Bucky]

What an interesting discussion. It has prompted me to consider my own attraction to muzzleloaders and muzzleloader hunting. When I was a boy, I used to watch my father spend hours making new handles for a pick or an axe. He would cut and split ash, hang the narrow billots in the shed, then when they were finally dry enough, would carve and rasp the into the proper shape and fit. I used to wonder why he was going through all that trouble when he could go to the local hardware store and buy one. I thought it was because he didn't have the extra money, now I know better. Modern culture is cluttered with mass produced objects whose synthetic materials are void of the " human touch". When we make, or hold anything handmade, we gain a sense of humanity which is so lacking today. For me, it's not so much about being "historically" correct as it is about appreciating what human hands can make. The muzzleloader, the pouches, the clothing and all that goes with it, speak of the handmade. Even tweaking a production gun, makes it somehow more your gun, just like that ash handle became more my father's axe.
I joined the forum because I wanted to listen to people who see traditional muzzleloaders as objects who's form, beautifully follows its function, as works of art. Thanks, Bucky

 

[tenngun]

It’s pretty neat to go to an event where the participants are all trying their best effort to be HC.
Its fun to go to a rendezvous. My outfit is the same. A camp next to me may have less then correct chairs and lodge iron ware maybe some blue speckled ware with a candle lantern from pier one.
I don’t get my breechclot in a wad over it.
Was twice at a museum where a person next to me was saying some incorrect things. Not wildly so, and 90% plus of his speech was right on mark. It was more true then most got from high school history and Hollywood.
mid it sparks some interest that’s good.
We will never be 100%
if we got a time machine and went back I bet we would be surprised by the numbers of folks that were out of step with their time.
We can research, we can look at museums, we can make our eyes weak looking at paintings and the best we will ever get is an approximation. For military it’s a little better. It’s still a shadow.

 

[toot]

how about the saying-IF THEY HAD IT THEY WOULD HAVE USED IT!

 

[Bob McBride]

Personally I’m not into reenacting or any of that but for me a great deal of my interest in muzzleloading is in determining how things were done in the period and applying it to my hunts which gives me the opportunity to test how practical a particular thing may be. Like some of you above I find handmade items (even if I hack them together myself) have a certain feel to them that is hard to quantify. Living rural as I do, and taking the gun, bag, and horn off the peg and walking out the front door gives me the opportunity to go through a hunt from start to finish something like my ancestors did on a daily basis. I can’t take too many extras with me and if something goes wrong I just have to walk the miles back home with a crippled gun. I suppose that may have something to do with my thoughts on originality. The times I’ve gone to a public range much of that magic wasn't there. That’s just me, and I know other folks find the magic in other ways. That said, when I go Coyote hunting with my pre-64 30-30 in my grandfather’s overalls, it takes me back to the ‘50’s and makes me wish I had a steel can sixer with pull tabs getting cold in the creek.....

It seems to me every thread-counter I’ve ever run into was a living history guy and I know if that was my thing I would want to do it the best I could and would probably count stitches per inch myself.

None of that interests my old Pop who carries an old Thompson Center bag I gave him with his Plains Rifle and it would never occur to him, nor would he care that some knucklehead thought it wasn’t ‘right’, much less have the ridiculous gall to say it to his face.....us all being different from the next guy is great fun......

 

[user 49399]

I'm not into reenacting either but I do enjoy watching reenactments. My nephew is a reenactor at Martins Station and I get a lot of gear and advice from him. It's funny sometimes when I show him something I've made, found or bought to go with my Fusil de Chasse. He'll start by saying 'yeah,that's cool or nice'. Then I tell him it's for the Fusil and he'll say 'yeah,,,,,,,but,,,,,,'. I learn a lot that way.

 

[tenngun]

Myself I don’t care for that saying. If they had AR-15,they wouldn’t have bought Hines or Hawkens.
Howsomever If you find something that’s handy for you, that’s the best

 

[user 49399]

This a gun not considered to be period or historically correct but it shoots good and I have a lot of fun shooting it. One of the items pictured is authentic

 

[Eric Krewson]

My focus is building and shooting my rifles, they are HC when I finish them, but I don't dress up period correct to shoot or hunt with them and use a stainless steel range rod for trips to the range.

As my eyesight has diminished after I passed 70, I even have a TC Hawken with a fiber optic front sight so I can see it. I wouldn't put the same sight on one of the rifles I built and I chose a tang mounted peep instead.

 

[Tn poor boy]

I agree bob,and tenn gun. I my self remember going. Dobbins and Taylor hardware in kingsport tn .By a tc Hawkins. Around 17 age me my best friend he got rifle for Christmas that yr. Off we went walk 5 mile to woods shot at rocks and spots on log. It was snow so made a camp . SO you see its about what have along with friend ship you make along the way just my 2 cent thanks bob Mcbride you tube i would not getting back in to it

 

[ThumperJones]

There are precious few left on either side, the meeting at the camp fire will be small, plus they will, for the most part, be old and tired of arguing. I don't see a problem here.
Robby

I like this guy. He put into words what I was thinking.

I like to keep my rifle and shooting gear as close to PC as I can, but certainly won't stay home if my vent pick doesn't match my pan brush. I pretty much just use my guns for roaming the woods after critters, and like to do it close to the way my great-great-grandfather would have done it.

Now my dad and friends hunt with a Lyman because they like the limited special season on the management area around the house.

I let them ride with me. We get along alright.

 

[Grenadier1758]

As can be seen from my avatar and my comments on attending juried events at Fort de Chartres, I have a great interest and desire to be PC and HC. In the red uniform, most of the stitching is hand sewn. The few concessions are to items that will be unseen such as my cot at some events and even at my age, ( too old to be a grenadier), I sleep on the ground at the April Trade Faire at Fort de Chartres. The restrictions due to the Corona virus and applied by the state of Illinois have once again postponed that event.

I also shoot with my muzzle loading gun club. There the emphasis is on having a firearm that is accurate and using the tools to make shooting safe and enjoyable. The measuring valve on my can of powder, the spotting scope to view targets or the use of the water soluble oil and water for patch lube. There is far less concern at the club range about historical accuracy other than requiring a traditional firearm. Even the 30+ pound bench rifles will have a more or less traditional lock.

Ultimately, whether we are shooting in a historical, period correct manner or just enjoying the shooting of a traditional styled rifle, Its all good and not to worry about discussions of whether the furnishing should be brass or iron, round ball or conical, Colt, Remington or Ruger revolvers, slow twist, fast twist or no twist, Pyrodex or black powder, CCI, Remington or RWS caps.

 

[rembrandt78737]

It's interesting, no matter what the historical hobby, this discussion comes up. There are always those guys that are so into HC that they spend most of their time pointing out discrepancies in other people's gear instead of enjoying the camaraderie. I own a 1929 Ford Model A. Same thing happens in that arena. There is always some guy that will go out of his way to point out that the bolts on your firewall aren't period correct.

Do I respect his knowledge and expertise? Sure I do, and would use him as a reference should I need to know something and can't find it. Do I find him annoying? Yep. People like that seem to miss the point of getting together in the first place. To get together with people of similar interests and enjoy the company and camaraderie that brings. Tolerance is in short supply these days, particularly in the US. It's a time when we should be focusing on our commonalities rather than our differences.

Do I enjoy being as HC as possible? I love history and experiencing doing things the old way. That said, I tend to blend time periods as practicality dictates. I have a Brown Bess flintlock and a heavy dragoon flintlock pistol. I make paper cartridges for both and carry civil war era cartridge boxes for each. Period correct? Uh, no, but it works for me from a practical standpoint.

We are all different and enjoy things in different ways. Instead of focusing on the differences, I prefer to focus on the interest that brought us together in the first place. I enjoy going full-dress historical, but I'm not about to turn down an opportunity to shoot with someone that isn't. It's just too hard to find muzzleloading/black powder enthusiasts in the Austin area to be picky. lol

 

[OhioHawkeye]

....a proper history buff who’s primary hobby is shooting.

....primary interest is in firearms and the shooting sports and have little or no interest in the history .....

Thoughts?

There is a third category as I discovered....and sadly they are mostly Anti 2nd Amendment and Leftists:

Those who are into history, but it is a prop, a tool to represent whatever, whoever, wherever in reenacting....i.e. they are only Actors not shooters.

 

[Daryl Crawford]

Bob,
Thanks for this thread and for the folks who responded so far. As my post above shows, I'm not one that dresses the part and is driven to be HC/PC. That said, some posts here are making me think more about that side if this game.
As an aside, I was turned off by an "actor" as mentioned in the post above. That may be a reason why I didn't look too deeply into the camps and such in previous years.
This year I'm going to get to one. I may have to borrow some gear, may have to make due with some stuff and hope it doesn't offend anyone's sensibilities, but I want to see what these camps/shoots are all about. On the positive side, I shoot so bad that I may help others to build their self esteem!

 

[kje54]

My brother in law got me into Civ War and at the beginning I was probably as Hollywood as one could get. Learned fairly quickly that my BiL really didn't know what he was talking about and gradually I became a Purist (Stitch Counter) and remained one for a rather long time. As I got older, wiser and larger I eased up a bit and started bringing things that helped with comfort but weren't exactly correct for the period I was doing.
Old habits die hard though and I still cringe at people who are blatantly non HC but I keep my mouth shut and move on.

 

[OhioHawkeye]

I just got into Civ War too...with my horse.
It's been a long travel, but I'm still just a shooter.
I had to dress the part to shoot, so I did. Just the basics
Then I wondered about the time frame of my new to me flintlock. My clothing changed a little.
Then I met a friend who was also an avid shooter and involved in a Rogers Rangers group...
The rest is literally history,

I'm involved with two Cavalry groups, One Rogers Rangers group and a Highlander Group.
We are all shooters, not actors. But, I've met a lot of actors.
At our muzzleloading club range, we encourage pre1840 garb at our monthly shoots, but many of us, myself included wear just bluejeans and whatever to shoot. Fun times. It's up to the range officer what is to be the targets. Sometimes paper, sometimes gongs, sometimes novelty....It varies.

The best thing is, Keep our own interest going and promote the sport of shooting in general, and muzzleloaders specifically.

 

[kje54]

I just got into Civ War too...with my horse.
It's been a long travel, but I'm still just a shooter.
I had to dress the part to shoot, so I did. Just the basics
Then I wondered about the time frame of my new to me flintlock. My clothing changed a little.
Then I met a friend who was also an avid shooter and involved in a Rogers Rangers group...
The rest is literally history,

I'm involved with two Cavalry groups, One Rogers Rangers group and a Highlander Group.
We are all shooters, not actors. But, I've met a lot of actors.
At our muzzleloading club range, we encourage pre1840 garb at our monthly shoots, but many of us, myself included wear just bluejeans and whatever to shoot. Fun times. It's up to the range officer what is to be the targets. Sometimes paper, sometimes gongs, sometimes novelty....It varies.

When I say that I still cringe at people who are blatantly non HC, part of that includes me looking in a mirror from time to time these days..........