Historically Incorrect, or (A Story of Thread Counting and Delrin Rods)

[Bob McBride]

I always thought of HC as meaning an item is a correct representation of an item from a particular era but it may not be PC for a certain specific time and location because it may have not been around yet or have fallen out of use. By PC we often mean Period/Place Correct. ie: Is my historically correct Trade gun PC for the early days of Boonesboro?

 

[Coot]

Does HC/PC mean historically correctly/period correct? If not what does it mean?

To me those two terms mean the same exact thing.

Mule

To some, HC means historically correct for a specific time & place, while PC is taken to mean period correct for a given time but not for a specific place. For example an Aztec sword is HC for what is now Mexico in 1500 but would only be PC for Japan in 1500. Rondys often go with PC for North America pre 1840 which allows F&I and Mountain Men at the same event. Juried events are typically time and place specific.

 

[Grenadier1758]

A club butt fowling gun would be period correct and historically correct in New England but only historically correct in South Carolina.

Card weaving is another of those technologies that were historically correct as that weaving technique was used from medieval times forward but no evidence of card weaving exists in the colonial period.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

The actual rifle that Redford used was an Ivest arms made in Italy

I do love that movie but I wish they had of done more research into real hawken rifles. It seems like a pretty easy thing to do.

On a side note, I noticed that paints his shirt red has a combination/cape gun with what looks like a rifle barrel and shotgun barrel. What's the history on that?

 

[user 49399]

In our blacksmith shop we have an anvil and vise from the late 1800's, a blower and tongs from early 1900's, hammers from the 1950's and hammers from 2018. We use all of them to turn 21st century scrap metal into knives and tools that look like they came from the 19th century. Go figure.

 

[Shotgunblast]

Actually, I use what works for me... or, that which I can actually get my hands on. Delrin rods... seem to work... in my "Historically Incorrect Hawken Style short rifle" with screw adjustable rear sight. A 28" 50 caliber is probably not historically correct... but, it works. My 45 Thompson Center 45 Cal and 27" barrel... is also... probably not 'historically correct' . With all of that polished brass on it... it does look a lot like a rifle Robert Redford used in a movie wherein Redford portrayed some fictional character called... Jeremiah Johnson... I understand that some people like being history buffs with what they believe to be historically correct or period correct... equipment, props, and costumes... I just like using stuff that works. I enjoy seeing the historically correct and period correct stuff... I simply do not care to own all of that...stuff.

Actually Jeremiah "Liver Eating"Johnson was not a fictional character!

 

[tenngun]

Well, that's the way Rendezvous started...but reenactments of the Civil War started right after the Civil War. I imagine Rev war happenings occurred prior to that.
There have always been rifle and other shooting competitions in the USA. Long before there was a USA.
We humans are a competitive lot.

Yes we are. Competition is as old as humans, and after great events recalling them in some sort of pageant is too, a hall Mark of humans
In this case I was talking specifically about our modern living history events. I didn’t mean to imply the NMLRA invented shooting matches

 

[appalichian hunter]

Do yer own thing, as long as your making smoke and smell that heavenly aroma. We are all into this for different reasons, why would one diddle with another's presentation unless asked for advice. As too the event issues we all started somewhere and it progressed, as we evolved to be more in tune with the periods we participate in. So bye the time you decide to attend a juried event you would be somewhat correct to the time line, now the question is the event coordinator's and their perception of correctness. I have found any time I spend with a traditional weapon is a good time.

 

[JCKelly]

I grew up longing to shoot Great-great Grampa's rifle, circa 1850. Grampa hunted with it from age 6. Heard lots of stories about its use in 19th century Pennsylvania. Finally began w Grampa's single bbl shotgun in 1954. Shot Civil War surplus muskets & one British flint carbine till I finally built my own very incorrect but shootable flint rifle 'bout 1959. Wife made me a fine fringed hunting shirt so I can be reasonably period correct.
Except I really do not like 18th century clothing, go for pockets & real belts that buckle. Made & sold a half dozen or so period correct rifles, I do know what is correct in some detail. Mostly I just like to shot muzzle loaders the way Grampa did. Except he was a far, far better shot.

 

[flintlock75]

I think there are those who see HC/PC as an integral part of their muzzleloading experience because their primary interest is in the period represented by the firearms they choose to shoot. In other words, a proper history buff who’s primary hobby is shooting. Then there are those who do not consider the period correctness of the accoutrements needed to shoot a muzzleloader because their primary interest is in firearms and the shooting sports and have little or no interest in the history represented by their firearm of choice. In other words, a shooter who’s choice of firearm is a bit ‘eccentric’ but otherwise, just a gun. (I am in one camp, so if I am misrepresenting your camp I’d love to know)

I see lots of threads that seems to show these two factions don’t seems to understand where the other is coming from, ie. “Why worry about that? Just use what looks good to you!” or “That’s a sketchy choice because one of those wasn’t around at the time your rifle represents.”

Perhaps a small discussion about why you are in the camp you are in would be helpful in regards to understanding each other....

...sort of a sitting around the fire passing around the peace pipe thread.

Thoughts?

I have heard this argument for 45 years, back in 1975 as the bicentennial was kicking off , the group I joined worked very hard to only have period correct guns and equipment. None of that was readily available so we researched finds and made our own stuff to go with the guns. Myself I like to be as period correct as possible, all of my stuff is handmade by me, horns, bags, etc. clothing made by my wife based on extant examples. I still hang out with folks who are just in it for fun at rondies and such. There is room for all. But I will say that the last 20 years I have seen a decline in attendance and the greeting of attendees. History is not being taught in schools so none of the younger generation understands our past. Also the cost just to get started is very high, a decent gun will cost you $1000 then add all the accessories and you are looking at $3000 just to start, if you don’t have the skills to make everything yourself it is a costly hobby.

 

[William Sublette]

Whats the jury's ruling on good cigars?


Would they fly in about any camp?




Asking for a friend.

 

[pat i.]

Dont know about good cigars but I smoke Backwoods and havent been kicked out of a camp.......yet.

 

[Rod Man]

I really appreciate the need to be historically correct as well as period correct. There needs to be that line so that things don’t get muddied up. At the same time I’ve noticed you fellas are the first ones to acknowledge that it can get very expensive to achieve that goal. It’s pretty cool that you fellas encourage those of us that aren’t quite there yet to enjoy the “The Dance with who we brought”.

 

[Rudyard]

I would guess they pre date Sir Walter Rawhlie ? & theyde have smoked em if they had had em!. And risk being soaked by servants fearing the smoker was on fire . Hmmm a bit Harry & Billy .
But Regards Rudyard

 

[David Y. Snellen]

Gentlemen,
Excellent topic. For me, I do mostly 1840's through 1865 with a focus on the War of Northern Aggression. I am a period saddle maker (used to be my full time job). I try to use correct materials in clothes, but I don't make an issue of machine sewn vs. hand sewn. For my saddles, some customers want hand sewn linen thread instead of machine sewn synthetic thread. No problem, but it was 25% more. Most customers want 14 oz harness leather for their McClellans because it will last 20+ years instead of 11oz dyed on one side (which is MORE accurate, but not entirely so due to the way it is tanned).
Money is an issue for most of us. I do not have my pistols de-farbed. Sure, it would be nice, but it isn't worth the time or expense to me.

We will never get to the real feel of the era we love. Tenngun and Kenn are correct. We are constantly learning and it changes things. Where does the line get drawn? Do you stop taking your heart meds because it isn't p.c.? Circumcision will be an issue too- I am Jewish, but for folks who are not (unless you are Muslim) that would not have been the norm in the eras we reenact. Our teeth are generally better, we are certainly better fed. I know some folks wilI starve themselves to get the right look of the average Southern soldier. I do think that we need to trim up a bit not only for the hobby, but health, but again, where do we draw a line? I am 51, and while I realize that Captain Bill Anderson had ONE man that was in his 60's, we are generally older than most folks would have been in certain things (such as cavalry).
I will use a Lyman Great Plains because for me they are close to the real Hawkens from the 1850's (except for the OBVIOUS difference in the snail/cone area), wear correct patterned machine sewn clothes and ride a saddle that is made for wider modern horses with harness leather and machine stitches. I suppose I use the 6 feet rule (if it looks right from 6 feet it is good).

One thing is important, shaming a new or poor reenactor because he is not up to standard drives potential shooters/reenactors away. Sure I understand a TC and jeans at an 1863 event should not be done, but welcoming someone and loaning some correct stuff and actually HELPING them gear up will go a long way to getting it"right" and insuring continuance.

One last note- we rode
(years ago) at the Battle of Bee Creek Missouri in Weston. We outmaneuvered the yank cavalry and went behind the lines to the artillery around their flank. It was WONDERFUL. Period guns, good horse, great riding...beautiful day. I felt in my mind like I was there (except for the actual death of friends and enemies), ***UNTIL*** the shadow passed overhead and looked up at the stealth bomber. It put a pin in the balloon!

Have fun, be good to newbies and be kind. Keep shooting and teaching a generation that doesn't even know how to spell 'history', that we live in a great country with great (original) laws. DO what you can to combat the ignorance.
Respectfully,
David

 

[tenngun]

Well now, I was on a trek and slitting some small wood for my fire starting. It was wet and about 40 degrees. I was ready to set up camp, have some dinner a taste of the creature.
I was sloppy and hit the base of my thumb with my tomahawk.
Bled like a stuck hog. Had my sewing kit, had my pint of rum, had deer sinew.
Stitched it up my self washed in some of my rum.
Used whip stitches, I had never seen a doc stitch up something before.
Five days later stitches came out fine.
Not the best HC experience.

 

[Artificer]

Whats the jury's ruling on good cigars?

Would they fly in about any camp?

Asking for a friend.

Cigars are commonly accepted in UnCivil War reenacting and a bit earlier than that.

18th century reenacting, not so much so at all, unless one's persona has had some connection with the Spanish anywhere or Caribbean, such as a sailor.

Gus

 

[Walkingeagle]

Well now, I was on a trek and slitting some small wood for my fire starting. It was wet and about 40 degrees. I was ready to set up camp, have some dinner a taste of the creature.
I was sloppy and hit the base of my thumb with my tomahawk.
Bled like a stuck hog. Had my sewing kit, had my pint of rum, had deer sinew.
Stitched it up my self washed in some of my rum.
Used whip stitches, I had never seen a doc stitch up something before.
Five days later stitches came out fine.
Not the best HC experience.View attachment 59433

Everyone thinks I’m crazy for stitching myself (fishing line), carving out growths with my skinnin knife and cauterizing myself. Never had rum for either events. I feel as though I’ve missed out now...
Walk

 

[kje54]

Well now, I was on a trek and slitting some small wood for my fire starting. It was wet and about 40 degrees. I was ready to set up camp, have some dinner a taste of the creature.
I was sloppy and hit the base of my thumb with my tomahawk.
Bled like a stuck hog. Had my sewing kit, had my pint of rum, had deer sinew.
Stitched it up my self washed in some of my rum.
Used whip stitches, I had never seen a doc stitch up something before.
Five days later stitches came out fine.
Not the best HC experience.View attachment 59433

If you'd have only hit the backspace it would have never happened..........

 

[Rod Man]

Cigars are commonly accepted in UnCivil War reenacting and a bit earlier than that.

18th century reenacting, not so much so at all, unless one's persona has had some connection with the Spanish anywhere or Caribbean, such as a sailor.

Gus

Forgive my ignorance, So I am assuming clay pipes is the only way for an individual to get their tobacco fix? What choices would one have?