Hodgdons 777 - what is it?

[Brian the Brit]

This might seem like a stupid question but I had an argument with a fellow shooter regarding black powder and black powder substitutes this evening and now I'm confused.

I happened to mention that I knew of two BP substitutes, namely Pyrodex and 777, when my mate said quite categorically that "777 is NOT a BP substitute, it is a nitro powder" he went on to add with great authority that "the ONLY BP substitute available is Pyrodex."

As we are currently reviewing our Club rules to ensure that we comply with the range limits regarding muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and calibre (BP weapons using BP and BP substitutes have certain exemptions) this is more than an idle discussion. As you are no doubt aware, we in the UK have to jump through all sorts of bureaucratic hoops to pursue our hobby and it is important that we get it right.

Can anyone enlighten me further please?

Brian

 

[Mad Professor]

hodgdon 777

The people at hodgon seem to think it's a blackpowder sub.

 

[john12865]

It's a sub.

 

[bart_anastasi]

I have used a can of 777 in my cap lock and the only problem I ever had with it was a noticalbe delay in ignition.

On using these powders and not exceding range velocity limits I would suggest you call up T/C here in the US. Ask them for a copy of their owners manual for a Fire Storm Flint lock rifle which can load up to 150 grains of all of these powders.

In that little book they have load and velocity data for all three powders for every type of projectile you can imagine. Pellets as well as powder which might be usefull.

These powders are designed to give similar speeds not exact duplicates but not so different as to give anyone a heartache.

You will notice that with a PRB 50 cal the max load is 110gr by volume of bp with a velocity around 2200fps.

You will also see that the same 50 cal PRB needs around 140gr by volume of Pyrodex to do the same.

777 is roughly 10 to 15 percent faster than bp which would mean the max load for the same 50 cal PRB would be 15percent less.

I am not here saying that BP is not safe only that the subs are a little more idiot reziliante.

By definition these powders subs are safer to store and handle because they are slower burning and not explosive which draws attention to the use of heavier bullets but look at the data.

Note that
100 gr BP is 250 fps faster with a 175 gr prb with pyroex

100 gr BP is 200 fps slower with a 375 gr maxi with pyrodex

Slower burning powders work better with heavy bullets.

That little book seems to think these are subs and they have the load data to prove it.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Triple Seven is a black powder sub. I have been using it for the last five years. It has proved to be very accurate in my rifles. Triple seven does produce higher vel, and works at higher pressure levels as well. Use it at the levels recommended by the maker of your rifle.

 

[Darkgael]

Brian: I copied this from Wikipedia:

Hodgdon also makes Triple Seven, a reduced fouling substitute. Triple Seven also is based on charcoal, potassium nitrate, potassium perchlorate, and graphite, but does not contain sulphur. Additional ingredients are protected by trade secret.

Clean Shot and the short lived Black Canyon powders are reduced fouling, reduced smoke substitutes that rely on ascorbic acid as a fuel, while Goex's Clear Shot uses a complex sugar, possibly fructose, as a fuel. These all offer the benefit of more shots between cleaning than other charcoal-based powders.

[edit] Disadvantages

With the increased safety of the black powder substitutes often comes a reduced sensitivity to ignition. Flintlocks in particular need very sensitive, finely granulated powder for use in the flash pan, and black powder tends to perform more reliably in these and traditional caplock guns than substitutes. Modern in-line muzzleloaders provide a stronger ignition than traditional designs, and this helps to increase reliability with the less sensitive substitutes.
References

* Pyrodex Material safety data sheet (MSDS)
* Triple Seven MSDS

I'm sure that more info is available.
Pete

 

[Runner]

777 is not like Pyrodex. It is a sub, but it does not make smoke. It has about the same ignition requirements as Pyrodex. It produces less fouling than Pyrodex. In guns shooting conicals and such, a hard ring of fouling forms just about where you want to seat your bullet. Damp patching is required to remove it. The 777 fouling is hard when dry and turns to sludge in damp weather faster than black fouling does. Using 100 grains of 3f in my CVA Hawken, I could not adjust the sights to hit at 25 yards. The speed difference was pronounced. 70 grains of 3f is a very good roundball load in a lot of guns that I have tried it in. The recoil is a sharp rap more like a modern gun than a muzzleloader loaded with black. I did not do any chronograph testing, but the load would seem to have at least 15 to 20 percent increase in velocity.
777 is a very good roundball accuracy powder when used with a lube patch combo that can handle the heat. I hunted squirrels out of a 1-32 barrel using 495 roundball over 70 grains of 3f 777. My 36 Bobcat can be fired 25 to 30 times in a row using commercial pre-lubed Basspro Patches without swabbing shooting 3f 777. It is about equal to Swiss as far as power. The fouling crud ring does not seem to happen as bad in guns shooting roundball. Sorry so disorganized! I hope that helps!
Black is still king. If the 777 fouling did not draw moisture the way it does, 777 would be at least an equal in caplocks. Still no replacement for real black in the flinters. 777 is also about 2 times the price of black. It is a sub and a good one, but the combination of fouling drawing moisture, high ignition temp, price, and no smoke pretty much negate all of it's good points.

 

[mykeal]

Brian,

In the US material manufacturers are required to publish what's called Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for every material they sell. Hodgdon's will provide you with copies of the MSDS's for Pyrodex and 777, and Goex or some other manufacturer of black powder can do the same.

They were referenced by the Wilikipedia article (see Pete D.'s post above).

I suggest you obtain those sheets and just hand them to the "expert" at your club. And keep a copy in the club archives for the authorities should they feel the need to discuss the subject. That should be sufficient.

 

[pmwest]

...call up T/C here in the US. Ask them for a copy of their owners manual for a Fire Storm Flint lock rifle which can load up to 150 grains of all of these powders.

Link to T/C Firestorm Manual but you will not find any reference to 777.

 

[bart_anastasi]

And some people say I have a memory.

OPS nice catch

 

[Brian the Brit]

Although this appears as a specific reply to Bart, it is meant as a most sincere thank you to all you gentlemen who so kindly replied to my query.

I am now very clear not only that 777 IS a BP substitute but also that my shooting friend is an idiot. :thumbsup:

Brian

 

[ratgunner]

Yep it's a sub.But it sure does make smoke.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Besides making smoke, it also makes "Meat" too.