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Hodgens Triple 7 ?

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Today did some fairly extensive, if not totally scientific, testing of 3f Hogdon Triple 7 in several of my guns:

Guns tested & loads:
1. T/C Hawken, .45 caliber, 70 grain charge, .40 caliber 180 grain LSWC in plastic unmentionable
2. T/C White Mountain Carbine, .50 caliber, 50 grain charge, Hornady 410 grain Great Plains HBSP
3. Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle, .54 caliber, 50 grain charge, .530 PRB
4. T/C Renegade, .54 caliber, 50 grain charge, .530 PRB
5. T/C Greyhawk (heavily modified) .50 caliber, 30 grain charge, Hornady 410 grain Great Plains HBSP
6. T/C Hawken, .50 caliber, with factory QLA muzzle, 70 grain charge, Hornady 410 grain Great Plains HBSP (Previous day).

Aditional Information:
Hogdon Triple 7 was the only propellant used, no black powder ignition charge, excepting the number 6 gun, (see Conclusion below). This plastic can of powder had a price tag of $24.99 and has been on the shelf in my gun room for at least three years or so, and possibly as long as ten years. I can't remember when I purchased it.

All guns had previously been cleaned, lubed and put away, except the number six gun which was dirty, having been fired several times before the test. None had caps fired on them before loading.

Guns were randomly fired from the standing and seated position(s).

Caps used were CCI #11 Magnums.

Targets were empty soda/V8 cans at thirty yards. I was not overly concerned with accuracy as the purpose of this test was to determine reliability of the powder. That said, most projectiles hit the target(s) or very nearly did.

Loaded each gun at the kitchen table, carried it out to the porch where it was capped and fired. Outside temperature was just below freezing with a fairly stiff wind. Guns never got cold, though, and that might be a legitimate factor to be tested at a later date.

I had one misfire because of a mushroomed nipple that I need to replace. Upon recocking, that same cap fired and ignited the powder charge without further mishap. I had no noticeable hangfires and no other misfires.

Conclusion:
While my experiences with Hogdon Triple 7 2f in traditional sidelock guns was marginal, the 3f powder performed MUCH better in my guns. With black powder supply sources being unreliable of late, Hogdon Triple 7 3f powder seems to be a reliable alternative, at least that is what this test would seem to indicate.

The number 6 gun above, T/C Hawken .50 caliber, was tested the previous day with both a 70 grain T7 charge alone as well as with that same load with a 7 grain Old Eynsford "ignition charge". Both of these loads were uncomfortable to fire, the one with the extra 7 grains of black powder excessively so.

This evening I will perhaps load up a couple of my guns and leave them out on the porch overnight to be test-fired in the morning.
 
Yesterday evening I loaded up a couple of gun barrels (from a T/C Greyhawk .50 caliber and a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle in .54 caliber. Both guns got 30 grains by volume of Hogdon Triple 7 3f powder under a PRB. I took both barrels out onto the roofed-over back porch, capped them and left them out overnight.

In the morning it was cold, damp and windy. A light rain was falling, but the gun barrels were both sheltered and neither of them were at all wet. I reassembled both guns and fired them. The Browning fired without mishap with the first trigger squeeze, but the T/C misfired twice. Both times the cap fired but failed to ignite the main charge. I removed the cap, put some Old Eynsford into the flash channel and replaced the nipple. This time the charge ignited without any problems.

I am not going to draw any conclusions from this "test" as it has too small a sample size to be very reliable, not to mention the dampness in the air that may have skewed the results (I was testing for reliability in the cold). As we all can atest, even Holy Black can fail to ignite.... especially in cold and damp weather. I have no present plans to repeat this test. First, I do not have true laboratory conditions and second, leaving a loaded barrel outside on the porch overnight assumes a certain amount of risk. There might come an ingenious ***** with a hammer....

So I'll leave it to the Reader to draw his/her own conclusion(s).
 
Glad I found this thread. All I can find local is substitute. Got a jug of T7 3f today. What is a good starting load for a .490 prb in a CVA mountain?
 
Glad I found this thread. All I can find local is substitute. Got a jug of T7 3f today. What is a good starting load for a .490 prb in a CVA mountain?
 
I have trouble with access to real BP in my part of MN so I went with ffg T7 in all my ml inc the shotguns I have. I have a 54cal TVM Leman that I use 100gr ffg T7 in under an unlubed 1/8" felt wad, TOTW Mink Oil lubed .015 cotton patch w/ .530 Hornady rb. Shoots great from 80-100gr charge. I just heat up tin of lube on stove and dunk 5-6 patches in it at a time with needle nose pliers. Put 20 or so in a stack and push down to force em into a cake. Heavily lubed, but I've shot 20-30 shots without cleaning at range with no issue.

That's great information.
 
I've never had trouble with any of the triple 7 I've shot.
In rifle barrels or smooth bore.
Bore butter ,better know as Chapstick, I wouldn't use that for a patch lube if you gave it to me!

Bore Butter wars
https://blackpowderbill.blogspot.com/2019/07/tired-of-typing-this-story-and-found-it.html

Please do not take this as an attack on you, nor anyone else because that is not my intention.

I do not subscribe to the 1000 shot theory nor to the barrel seasoning hoopla. Never have. However, been using older, stiff and mostly dried out Bore Butter for patch lube in my .32 Crockett rifle and it has proven to be the better of the other two I have tried. With the other two lubes I have tried, both destroyed the patches.

Not saying it's the best by no means because there's still testing to do. But so far, so good. The recovered patches look very good and accuracy is there. There's also other people that has posted they shoot a lot every week that uses Bore Butter with good results. Also, Bore Butter is the only lube I used for conicals for years which provided very good accuracy. The last elk I killed was every bit of 150 yards and hit exactly where I was aiming for. Again, not saying it was the Bore Butter, but if it were so bad, as many critics claim, my real life testing has not shown it.

Again, I am not referring to claims by the Bore Butter Gods. I am relaying my proven accuracy results when using it as a patch lube, as well as on conicals. Will I change to something else? If it is proven better, you bet I will. Besides that, the older dried out stuff I have is nearly gone. It is not the same as the newer and much thinner Bore Butter I have.
 
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So 50 for target and around 60 for deer would work well you think?
The difference in performance between 50 and 60 grains of 3f black powder is only about 100 feet per second muzzle velocity according to the P-Max calculator... not really enough that the deer is going to notice the difference. T7 is going to give you similar results most likely.

I would suggest starting at 50 grains... which is generally what I shoot .490 PRB in my guns... and gradually work up by five grain increments. Pick the most accurate load whatever it is and use that for your hunting load. You might find, though, that 50 grains IS the most accurate load.

Back when I was selling T/C and CVA guns en masse, the CVA guns generally shot PRB better than the T/C guns did unless it was a Pennsylvania Hunter I suppose... but I never saw one of those. I would invest in a box of conicals, though and see how the gun shoots them. They generally penetrate better on game.
 
I am heading out today to work on velocity loads with a magnetospeed chronometer using triple 7 3F in three T/C Renegade barrels bored out by Hoyt.

58 cal 24" 500 gr MV 1350-1400fps
54 cal 24" 485 gr MV 1450-1500fps
54 cal 21" 425gr MV 1400-1450fps

Target velocities above. Starting loads will be 100 gr of T7 3F and adjust +/- to try to reach target velocities. Accuracy loads will follow once I establish what velocities I can expect.

RIO musket caps

Velocities were derived from the charts below on T7 load data from the source and from comparing it to the results from the p-max calculator provided by Dale Allen Raby.

All loads have a 99% burn in the barrels (if it was BP)
 

Attachments

  • muzzleloading_manual_loads 777.pdf
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I found real black powder at a gunshow a few weeks ago. Brand new stuff. I nearly fainted. I haven't seen that in the past 25 years. The local sources in my area dried up 30 years ago.
Local gun shops don't carry it because it's a hassle and they don't make a profit. At least that's what they all told me.
 
I used to work at one that sold it years ago. It was pretty much a "break even" sales item we stocked for the benefit of our muzzleloading customers. The rules required by the feds are ridiculous like most federal regulations, and the records are inspectable. We also had to keep it in an insulated metal box on wheels that was a certain distance from the door in case of fire so we could get the black powder out of the building quickly.... like I am going to run into a burning building to try to get thirty pounds of black powder out!

When that business closed up, the boss opened a new store, but no longer stocked black powder and still doesn't.

Boiling it all down, unless you are selling huge amounts of the stuff, it is just too much of a hassle for the amount of money you "make" selling it. This is a great example of the government deliberately making it nearly impossible to do business.
 
My LGS has Goex on order as soon as it is available to ship. Been on order since last March. I think he said they are allowed to carry up to 80 lbs in stock.
I hope I can get some here but I ain't holding my breath. Can't get much of anything in this area. When asking the workers at what few sporting goods stores there are here anything about traditional muzzleloaders or supplies, they look at you like your from Mars.
 
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