Hoe Cake

[Artificer]

My favorite is fried cornmeal mush.

With Karo Syrup?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Right there with you on sweet cornbread. That's like putting sugar in grits, a sin.

At least she doesn't put sugar on her grits.

LOL!!

My Paternal Grandma's Cracklin's were to die for! Would have loved to try them in cornbread, but they never lasted that long.

On my first time teaching the Armalite Police Armorer's course, we taught the class in St. Pete, Florida.

At the restaurant for breakfast the first morning, the Head Instructor ordered grits with his breakfast. Before I ordered, I asked if they had REAL butter to put on the grits and none of that OLEO Margarine "stuff." Our waitress was about our age and since I addressed her as "Mam," she winked and said normally they didn't, but she could get us some "if we didn't tell."

Now Charlie the Head Instructor was surprised I ordered grits, as my best friend in life who had taught so many other classes with him, wouldn't touch grits. (He knew Mike and I had grown up in the Midwest, though a good ways apart.) I told Charlie we didn't have them growing up, but when I first had them, I was hooked for life, AS LONG AS there was real butter to go with them and salt.

The waitress brought me a small bowl with real butter when she brought our orders, but didn't bring any for Charlie. He didn't notice before she had asked if there was anything else we would like and then left. As I'm spreading some butter on my grits, he wondered why she hadn't brought him some. I told him I addressed her as Mam and asked nicely for it. Good thing there was enough butter for both orders of our grits. I added a nice bonus tip for our Waitress.

The next morning the same Waitress served us. Charlie forgot to ask for real butter. So when I ordered, I said, "Mam, I hope you will excuse my good friend from Kentucky, but he's been in the hills and hollers a bit too long, so could you kindly bring some real butter for both of orders of grits?" She chuckled and said sure. I thought Charlie was going to spit out his coffee as he began to laugh.

Oh, I also found out years earlier you DON'T order Grits with your breakfast in West Springfield, MA as it could get a might rough, but that's another story.

Gus

 

[user 48702]

Gus:
You mentioned syrup earlier. I grew up always having Golden Eagle Syrup, made here in Alabama. It is known as Golden Eagle Syrup "The Pride of Alabama" made with a blend of corn syrup, cane sugar syrup, cane molasses and pure honey. It's about 3 times thicker than Karo Syrup, thicker than gear oil, and doesn't soak in when using on biscuits, pancakes, or cornbread. It just kinda sits there on top, and runs down the sides of whatever. No matter where I was stationed, I always had Golden Eagle on hand, as my Mom would always ship me some when I was about out. I have been known to "Brown Bag" my own when I'm going to iHop or a restaurant, knowing I'm going to have waffles or pancakes. Many times, the waitress will say "Ah, you too?" "That's my favorite also". They've been in business since 1928, and just about anyone here or border States have heard of Golden Eagle.

Here's a short video of their operation in Fayette, Alabama, a very small operation by todays standards.
Golden Eagle Syrup

 

[Ohio Rusty]

Growing up, Grandma would put molasses in the cornbread. It was light and moist. Her cornbread was always a tad sweet. It would do for breakfast with a little milk, or with butter and honey on it. It was also great with chili or bean soup. You couldn't eat bean soup without cornbread. Someone mentioned grits. When I was in the army stationed in Louisiana, they had grits every morning. They were not good at all. The only way I could eat them was to put butter and syrup on them .... Must be a northern thing growing up in Ohio.
Ohio Rusty ><>

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Having made them all, Kephart’s notation of “warm water” is VERY important as that’s what gets the meal to release the gluten and become “glue-y”. Think of grits or cornmeal mush.
Those 3 versions are the old school version of “hush puppies” and are VERY good!!!

Good Points!
And it's actually better for you to mix in some grits or masa flour in all of the above. Helps you to absorb niacin, which plain cornmeal will not let you do. Lack of the niacin (vitamin B3) was what caused Europeans and some 19th and early 20th century Southerners to develop Pelagra. It's not a disease..., it's a nutrient deficiency as is Scurvy (vitamin c) and beri-beri (protein)

I wonder if the corn dodger is a western thing- I'm from Colorado originals and the term was pretty common, as stated they were round- like stubby hot dog in shape, and kept well without refrigeration, etc.
My wondering was more on the ingredients, I thought corn bread had all the bells and whistles, corn meal, white flour, eggs, milk, baking powder, etc. and the others, just corn meal white flour, some baking powder.

Well terms vary by region. If you click on the link that I provided above, and read down a bit, you find "corn bread" as well as "corn batter bread", which is the item made with some wheat flour and some baking powder, and eggs, and I think milk is in one of those. What we'd today recognize as "corn bread" or what you'd get when using Jiffy Corn Muffin mix.

There are also about 10 different names for dried corn that has been parched and ground. I've always called it Rockahominy, but it's also nocake, pinole, gofio, coal flour, and a bunch other names.

I got interested in the differences, because I had read how people on the frontier were making bread..., but they had no wheat, barley, nor oats, just corn, ..., perhaps they had a milking cow, or a laying hen... and I got interested in how they did it without milk, wheat, or eggs....,

LD

 

[SOLANCO]

The above are correct, regional from what I've seen too. Johnny Cakes generally do not have any leavening and Hoe Cakes generally do. In our area, my Mom and Grandmother both always called a hoe cake a skillet biscuit, it was kind of between the consistency of a biscuit and cornbread. They called cornbread baked in a cast iron cornbread mold, which was in the shape of ears of corn or muffins, corn pones. Molded corn pones are great for the trail as long as you have some water to wash them down. They hold together real good and will survive rough traveling, on the other hand, a slice of cornbread will just fall apart and give you a sack full of crumbs. Years ago, I bought a two volume set of the Sears and Roebuck Kenmore Cook Book, copyrighted 1939, 1940, and 1947. Inside the cover it says "The United States Regional Cook Book". These are some great old cook books with old recipes which are divided in to different areas of the country, Southern, New England, and Mid-West etc. It is a two volume hardbound set including recipes for wild game, such as Opossum and Squirrel Dumplings.

Found that cookbook used on Amazon and ordered it. They don't say it's two volumes.
Thank you for telling us about it!!

 

[user 48702]

Found that cookbook used on Amazon and ordered it. They don't say it's two volumes.
Thank you for telling us about it!!

There were two volumes, maybe more that Sears and Roebuck sold, both copyrighted in the 1940s and 1950s. They were reviewed and edited by a Ruth Berolzheimer, Director of the Culinary Arts Institutes of Chicago. One volume is titled "The American Woman's Cook Book" and the other "The United States Regional Cook Book". The books are hardbound and the covers are green with gold colored embossing. I don't have the box slip cover, but you can find images on the net where Sears sold them as a set and some get pretty pricy. Each volume is over 700 pages. They also can be found on occasion at the Goodwill stores.

 

[SOLANCO]

There were two volumes, maybe more that Sears and Roebuck sold, both copyrighted in the 1940s and 1950s. They were reviewed and edited by a Ruth Berolzheimer, Director of the Culinary Arts Institutes of Chicago. One volume is titled "The American Woman's Cook Book" and the other "The United States Regional Cook Book". The books are hardbound and the covers are green with gold colored embossing. I don't have the box slip cover, but you can find images on the net where Sears sold them as a set and some get pretty pricy. Each volume is over 700 pages. They also can be found on occasion at the Goodwill stores.

Dug deeper on Amazon and found the second book. Thanks for your response! BTW The American Womans Cook Book is also available for Kindle for $1.99 but it got bad reviews for formatting errors.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I always look for the books first on Hathi Trust

When you do, you will be surprised what you may find online..., The American Women's Cook Book

When I go looking for recipes, though, I try to find a really old cook book, if I'm looking to do an 18th or 19th century dish. "Cookery" is one key word for title searches...

I found this in The Family Receipt-Book, 1810, written by a British author:

The more respectable classes [of Americans] not only prepare an excellent bread from Indian wheat [maize], by kneading the flour into a stiff paste, either alone, or mixed with wheat and rye ; but make, with this flour [cornmeal], eggs, and milk, a very nice cake, about the size and thickness of our crumpets, but very far superior. Those [Americans] in humbler life mix some of the flour [cornmeal] and water so as to make a paste, into what they call a Johnny cake, which they bake on a board before the fire, and commonly eat while hot, as it proves but indifferent food when cold.

So we see that as early as 1810 something closer to what we would call corn bread was known, as far away as England, and the ingredients for Johnny Cake being the same as Kephart learned a century later. It's apparently a very thick Hasty Pudding, that is then shaped, and then baked before the fire.

This was written in the book more as a commentary on what the author knew...for he omits proportions for the cornbread and fails to mention warm or hot water used with the Johnny Cake...

LD

 

[Crow-Feather]

Oka, I am not a great cook. What is the difference between hoe cake, corn dodgers, corn bread, johnny cake, cone pone,

Hoe cake is made in the red light district of most major cities.

 

[Red Owl]

Well I'm enjoying this conversation. The "Johnny Cake" term- I never heard it used any place other than the north- the mid-west mostly- and I think that was what I call cornbread- a big pan and you cut it into slices- corn meal, white flour, milk eggs, salt, baking powder- you could actually live on it. I always thought cone pone was the same thing as the corn dodger- a hot dog shaped item and the ingredients more limited. Hoe cake- I thought of as a hockey puck or silver dollar pancake.
If you don't use baking powder- off hand I'd think the result would be very dense. Like hard tack. If eggs were added I think that has a rising effect but eggs would haven't been available if you were on the trail.
Corn meal mush, hasty pudding, etc.- I thought that was corn meal cooked like grits. I like the mountain man era and a lot of folks talk about a corn boiler, etc. but time was usually of the essence and I don't think whole dried corn was carried and soaked over night and then boiled for an hour or two- I think boiled corn meal was used. The boiled corn meal is actually easier to clean up than grits since you don't get any "Glue" sticking to the pot- it rinses out pretty easy.

 

[Crowtalks]

We used to have hoecake pretty often when I was growing up, here in north Florida. Both of my parents were from Alabama. Hoecake was made of cornmeal, salt and water, cooked on a flat skillet on the stovetop with a little grease. A buddy of mine, just a few years older than I, recently told me that the field hands on his family farm actually cooked hoecakes on their hoes, which were abraded clean and bright by the sandy soil. This would have been in the 1950's.

The light, fluffy "cornbread" we see all the time now is closer to what my folks called "egg bread." I don't think anybody I knew growing up ever put sugar in any kind of corn bread, though. Ever. People now want everything sweet.

I never heard the term "Johnny cake" applied to anything we had, but I did read about "Johnny cakes" being made in colonial times.

Corn pones were also made of just cornmeal, salt, and water, but were made thicker than hoecake. They were also cooked on a stovetop but in a deeper skillet, with more and deeper grease. They were essentially fried. Old-time corn pone is really good.

I don't know the etymology of "pone" for certain, but I did learn many years ago that a-pon is an Algonkin term for at least one type of corn bread. Coincidentally, I believe pan is the Spanish term for "bread."

Dang... Now I want some.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

My Grandma used to make us hoe cakes in her iron skillets when i was a kid and I would have walked all day for one!

I was taught that corn pone was made in the skillet and usually filled the skillet, where corn bread was made in the glass or cast iron molds. Don't know if it is all true, but its my story and I'm stickin to it!

 

[Crowtalks]

Well I'm enjoying this conversation. The "Johnny Cake" term- I never heard it used any place other than the north- the mid-west mostly- and I think that was what I call cornbread- a big pan and you cut it into slices- corn meal, white flour, milk eggs, salt, baking powder- you could actually live on it. I always thought cone pone was the same thing as the corn dodger- a hot dog shaped item and the ingredients more limited. Hoe cake- I thought of as a hockey puck or silver dollar pancake.
If you don't use baking powder- off hand I'd think the result would be very dense. Like hard tack. If eggs were added I think that has a rising effect but eggs would haven't been available if you were on the trail.
Corn meal mush, hasty pudding, etc.- I thought that was corn meal cooked like grits. I like the mountain man era and a lot of folks talk about a corn boiler, etc. but time was usually of the essence and I don't think whole dried corn was carried and soaked over night and then boiled for an hour or two- I think boiled corn meal was used. The boiled corn meal is actually easier to clean up than grits since you don't get any "Glue" sticking to the pot- it rinses out pretty easy.

Good info...

 

[Crowtalks]

Right there with you on sweet cornbread. That's like putting sugar in grits, a sin. I have to compromise on the sweet cornbread though, I grew up in North Central Alabama, and the wife was born in Asheville, NC, and grew up in South East Alabama. Her mom always made sweet cornbread, so we alternate. I'll say, whos turn is it, and she will say, yuck! Kind of a running joke, but on occasion I'll get a batch of Mama's cornbread. I know you can't talk about religion on this forum, but we differ there too. Been married since 87' and we have very few things that we disagree on, cornbread mostly. At least she doesn't put sugar on her grits.

My wife is from northern Illinois and she douses her corn pone (she only fries it in the skillet) with maple syrup...I tried and even though I could drink maple syrup, I don't really care for the combo. I prefer cracklin corn bread, sliced with plenty of butter inside.

When I was a kid, my Momma taught me to crumble up corn bread in a glass of butter milk and drink it...and it was good.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Hoe cake is made in the red light district of most major cities.

Dude. That's "ho pie".

wm (skirting the line in the interest of social accuracy)

 

[appalichian hunter]

king syrup here, for corn meal cakes.

 

[Artificer]

Growing up, Grandma would put molasses in the cornbread. It was light and moist. Her cornbread was always a tad sweet. It would do for breakfast with a little milk, or with butter and honey on it. It was also great with chili or bean soup. You couldn't eat bean soup without cornbread. Someone mentioned grits. When I was in the army stationed in Louisiana, they had grits every morning. They were not good at all. The only way I could eat them was to put butter and syrup on them .... Must be a northern thing growing up in Ohio.
Ohio Rusty ><>

OMG, Bean Soup and Cornbread! A FINE meal, to be sure!

Takes me back to the Annual Collie Club Dog Show we put on each year around Richmond, VA and some of the older Ladies prepared a big pot of Bean Soup with corn bread on the side to sell for lunch along with other home made goodies, so it helped pay for the expenses of putting on the show.

I normally don't each lunch, but was going to buy something from them to help out the club. But when I saw the pot of bean soup, my eyes glazed over with anticipation. Then one of the ladies said, "Don't forget your cornbread with that." I was in Heaven. I went through it like Jackson in the Valley. I just had to have a second helping and told them just how much I enjoyed it and it brought me back to my childhood. I think they were only selling it for two or three dollars, but I handed them a Five and said that was a Five Dollar Bowl of Soup, if I ever saw or heard of one.

Every year they did that, I SO looked forward to having the bean soup and cornbread. But from the second year onward, I happily paid Five Dollars per bowl with the corn bread.

Gus

 

[nkbj]

Recycled left over corn bread fried in butter and topped with syrup for breakfast...
what a side order to go with buckboard bacon and eggs.
Uuum uuum good!

 

[tenngun]

Growing up, Grandma would put molasses in the cornbread. It was light and moist. Her cornbread was always a tad sweet. It would do for breakfast with a little milk, or with butter and honey on it. It was also great with chili or bean soup. You couldn't eat bean soup without cornbread. Someone mentioned grits. When I was in the army stationed in Louisiana, they had grits every morning. They were not good at all. The only way I could eat them was to put butter and syrup on them .... Must be a northern thing growing up in Ohio.
Ohio Rusty ><>

My dad’s specialty was pancakes and would make them about once a month. But the real special treat was fried mush in the morning with sausage

 

[kje54]

I'm the odd man out here. I never learned to like cornbread, pone, johnny cakes, etc. We never had any of that at home when I was growing up even when we lived in southern states.